goodbye clerics... and paladins

[Azzemmell]

I've decided to try out a cleric-less (and therefore paladin-less) magic system. This, of course, means letting other magic users cast healing spells.

So this is what I've done:

All classes (magic users, that is) can learn and cast any spell. A spell that is a differnet level for different classes is the lowest level listed. So the way that each class learns and casts is what balances and differenciates them.

New feat: DEVOTEE OF (insert god's name)
req: a worshiper of said god who attends services
and tithes. Someone who has more devotion
than the average worshiper.
benefits: pc picks from one of the domains of diety and gains domain power, the ability to cast the 1st lvl domain spell 1/day and 2/day may cast any of three cantrips of PC's choice.
Diety's fav. weapon is added to PC's proficiency.

special: this feat can be taken multiple times, each time the pc can either choose from a new domain or gain the next level of domain spell 1/day.


This is all very much in the beginning stages, and has not been playtested yet. I'm looking for input.

Also, the cleric turning/rebuking/channeling ability would be turned into a feat that has Devotee as a req.


Ideas???


Azz

 

[Drawmack]

Divine Magic works vastly different from Arcane magic. I really don't like the idea of dropping divine magic all togehter.

 

[haiiro]

New feat: DEVOTEE OF (insert god's name)
req: a worshiper of said god who attends services
and tithes. Someone who has more devotion
than the average worshiper.
benefits: pc picks from one of the domains of diety and gains domain power, the ability to cast the 1st lvl domain spell 1/day and 2/day may cast any of three cantrips of PC's choice.
Diety's fav. weapon is added to PC's proficiency.

special: this feat can be taken multiple times, each time the pc can either choose from a new domain or gain the next level of domain spell 1/day.

This is an extraordinarily powerful feat, granting a domain power, weapon proficiency and minor spell use with only a roleplaying prereq to balance it out. At very least, I would make the prereq mechanical (stat minimums, level minimu, etc.) not RP.

Another problem is that domain powers are not inherently balanced against one another. As I understand it, the domains are supposed to be balanced against each other because some domains grant strong powers but less useful domain spells, and others grant weak powers and more useful spells. Which domain power this feat grants will affect its overall utility and strength, which isn't good for game balance IMO.

 

[hong]

Divine Magic works vastly different from Arcane magic. I really don't like the idea of dropping divine magic all togehter.

Shugenja in Rokugan fill both the blaster wizard and healing medic roles. Just not at the same time, typically.

 

[nharwell]

Divine Magic works vastly different from Arcane magic. I really don't like the idea of dropping divine magic all togehter.

Different strokes, I suppose....

I can't stand Divine vs. Arcane in D&D precisely because there is no "vast difference" as you claim. In fact, the magic is exactly the same -- except divine casters can heal. I like the idea of dropping the divine vs. arcane distinction, separating priests from spellcasting...

 

[MyPetSlug]

I was actually thinking about doing something very similar in my game too, that is, drop clerics from the game all together. What I was going to do though to compensate was something like making life magic (which would include healing and other basic cleric spells) a school, and the only way a wizard could cast healing magic would be to specialize in that school. That way, it would be balance out with opposition schools.

The thing I can't justify is all the "religious" spells like Bless, Prayer, Holy Word, consecrate, and stuff like that. Those spells seem much more faith based and fit into the flavor of being powers granted by a particular god as opposed to magic. The other thing to consider is that a lot of the domain schools overlap with spells on the wizard list, so it’s like, why would anyone take the war domain when they already have access to most of those spells as a wizard. I think what you’d find is that every wizard would just take the healing domain and then what you’d have is a bunch of overpowered wizards.

 

[Drawmack]

Different strokes, I suppose....

I can't stand Divine vs. Arcane in D&D precisely because there is no "vast difference" as you claim. In fact, the magic is exactly the same -- except divine casters can heal. I like the idea of dropping the divine vs. arcane distinction, separating priests from spellcasting...

Really, let's see whose side the rules stand on shall we:

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided he can cast spells of that level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the cleric's Wisdom modifier.
Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend an hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells.
In addition to his standard spells, a cleric gets one domain spell of each spell level, starting at 1st. When a cleric prepares a domain spell, it must come from one of his two domains.

So a cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list. Clerics get domain spells and domain powers. The domain spells are prepared on top of their spells per day.

Bard:
TABLE: Bard Spells Known
Spells: A bard casts arcane spells. The bard casts these spells without needing to prepare them beforehand or keep a spellbook. Bards receive bonus spells for high Charisma, and to cast a spell a bard must have a Charisma score at least equal to 10 + the level of the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the bard's Charisma modifier.

Sorcerer:
TABLE: Sorcerer Spells Known
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells. The number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma bonus. The spells a sorcerer knows can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.
A sorcerer is limited to casting a certain number of spells of each level per day, but he need not prepare his spells in advance. The number of spells he can cast per day is improved by his bonus spells, if any.
A sorcerer may use a higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell if he so chooses. The spell is still treated as its actual level, not the level of the slot used to cast it.
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against sorcerer spells is 10 + the spell's level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Wizard:
Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells. She is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, according to her class level. A wizard must prepare spells ahead of time by getting a good night's sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare. To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, a wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level. A wizard's bonus spells are based on Intelligence. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against wizard spells is 10 + the spell's level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.

Hmmm, looks like all the arcane casters use a limited spell list as opposed to the Cleric's complete spell list. But that's not a difference I guess.

Now let's look at spell preperation. Since they are the same I guess there will only be one document concerning this in the SRD. Oh looky here there are two, anyway I guess they just retyped the same information twice.

Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards, but with a few differences.

There's that word differences, maybe they are lying too us.

Time of Day (paraphrased): However, divine spellcasters do not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells.

Spell Selection and Preparation (paraphrased): . A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his or her spells at once.

However, the character can spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells in place of certain prepared spells (see Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells, below).

Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks.

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component and the divine version has a divine focus component.

I'm not 100% certain on this but I'm pretty sure those are some big differences.

Also I don't think that any devine spells have a material component which is another big change.

 

[hong]

Hmmm, looks like all the arcane casters use a limited spell list as opposed to the Cleric's complete spell list. But that's not a difference I guess.

Clerics knowing all spells is a property of the cleric class, not of divine spellcasting in general. The same goes for things like domain spells (which druids and other divine spellcasters don't get). The shugenja is a divine spellcaster that uses Cha as its primary stat and casts spells like a sorcerer, and gets no domains at all.

Also I don't think that any devine spells have a material component which is another big change.

Rot.

 

[Drawmack]

Clerics knowing all spells is a property of the cleric class, not of divine spellcasting in general. The same goes for things like domain spells (which druids and other divine spellcasters don't get). The shugenja is a divine spellcaster that uses Cha as its primary stat and casts spells like a sorcerer, and gets no domains at all.

Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, a character's spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for the character’s class.

SRD seems to disagree hong.

 

[hong]

[superfluous quote snipped]


SRD seems to disagree hong.

Sorcs don't need spellbooks either. Your point is?


BTW, has anyone mentioned to you yet the silliness of rules lawyering in the House rules forum?