"Goodest of the good" and why Hell is a bad place

[Shemeska]

Based on this, I'm wondering: which of the three good alignments is, if you will, the "goodest of the good"?

For mortals the distinction is purely academic, while for celestials it's going to be NG, because they're purely devoted to Good, without any divided loyalties towards Law or Chaos. A NG celestial like a guardinal might employ them, but they won't be beholden to them like an archon or eladrin would be (and they won't play alignment second fiddle to deific whimsy like an aasimon/angel would).

In contrast, why do demons, devils, and evil gods live in such crap-holes? Especially for beings capable of divinely morphing their environment, why would they continue to live in such inhospitable "places"? Sure, one can argue that a devil (e.g.) is immune to most of the hazards of Hell, but not all of them. Furthermore, many of the "lower" planes such as the Abyss are not even all that stable. How to plot the destruction of the cosmos if you can't even be sure your own house will hold together long enough?

It's not a choice of theirs, not really. The fiends are living manifestations of their particular alignment (though the gods aren't), and their native planes are an environment physically composed of the raw alignment itself. Various flavors of NE/CE/LE exist, and the various layers of lower planes typically cater themselves to a landscape that embodies and expresses that particular flavor of that evil alignment. It's not a 'crap-hole' to the fiends living there necessarily, it's simply what they are, and a negative association with it comes from our own mortal physical frailty and non-OMG EVIL alignment that we typically have.

But if we move away from the D&D/Planescape definition of such things and, as you suggest, go with a strict, 'damnation is willing removal from the grace of Good/God/the Almighty/etc' then the environment is again simply a reflection of their self-created Evil (absence of Good).

 

[Nightfall]

Why do demons, devils and the rest live in crappy places? Better to reign in "Hell" than serve and heaven.

Shem has the best reason for fiends anyway.

 

[klofft]

Actually, Shem, I don't think your PS definition of the lower planes really conflicts terribly with my "damnation" (not my word) hypothesis. An absence of good would also serve as the reason why the planes are the way they are, and why the fiends are the way they are as well. After all, in the same cosmological framework I'm positing, virtue would build on virtue and vice would build on vice. There would not need to be a substantive concept called "evil" for that to be the case.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I would say Neutral Good is the most good. Chaotic Good can make a person put themselves or specific individuals over others. Lawful Good can lead to intolerance and excessive hubris.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I would say Neutral Good is the most good. Chaotic Good can make a person put themselves or specific individuals over others. Lawful Good can lead to intolerance and excessive hubris.

While Neutral Good people are capable of both sins, depending on the situation.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

While Neutral Good people are capable of both sins, depending on the situation.

I would say they are not. A Neutral Good person can see the flaws of extreme law or chaos and will not sway to one extreme or the other. That is what makes them Neutral Good. They are good untainted by Law or Chaos.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Based on this, I'm wondering: which of the three good alignments is, if you will, the "goodest of the good"?

Neutral Good. The other two have the complications of a second extreme trait, which can interfere with the doing-of-goodness.

It would seem that, based on the cosmological premise I began with above, that it is their lack of goodness that creates an inhospitable environment. They can't help but make this environment what it is, because their own will over all others (a decent enough definition of evil) prevents them from accepting the benevolence of an order that exists beyond them. The conflict between their will and the ultimate benevolence of creation results in a misery of their own making.

That's as good a reason as any. Misery loves company.

 

[Tiberius]

Maybe fiends enjoy seared, desolate, and blasted landscapes.

Seriously. I'm not sure I'd ever get tired of rivers of fire or mountains of obsidian.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Klofft—maybe you're asking the wrong question. D&D assumes a polytheistic setting. Historical polytheistic cultures did not have a concept of ultimate good or Hell. Look at the Germanic, Pagan, Slavic, Roman, and Greek paganism. Look at Hinduism (classical & modern). Look at Native American spiritual beliefs.

Alternately you could look at dualism (ditheism or bitheism) which includes Manichæism and the Gnostics.

The Augustinian view that you refer to is specifically an early Christian world-view that may not be appropriate when removed from the Christian religion.

It seems to me that you and your players have started contemplating the metaphysical nature of the universe (which is a good thing). My advice is to continue your research on real-world historical belief systems until you find one or a combination that suits your tastes.

Personally I believe that for D&D, I think that the world-view espoused by the Celts, Germans, Roman, Greeks, and Egyptians work just fine precisely because they don't agree with each other. Also these are dead religious practices for all intents and purposes and shouldn't offend any of the players.

 

[Drowbane]

Which good is most good? Seems to me that the answer in general is " None of them".

Chaotic Good sometimes puts the needs of the individual above the masses, which isn't good.

Lawful Good sometimes goes the other way, infinging on the individual in the name of the comfort of others - and that way lay tyrrany.

Neutral Good can go in either of these directions at any time.

My point - the Law/Chaos axis is orthoganal to Good/Evil. Level of Goodness in an individual is completely independent of their position on the Law/Chaos line.

I could not have said it better.