Grade the Hero System

How do you feel about The Hero System (any variant)?

  • I love it.

    Votes: 17 17.5%
  • It's pretty good.

    Votes: 19 19.6%
  • It's alright I guess.

    Votes: 23 23.7%
  • It's pretty bad.

    Votes: 5 5.2%
  • I hate it.

    Votes: 3 3.1%
  • I've never played it.

    Votes: 27 27.8%
  • I've never even heard of it.

    Votes: 3 3.1%

Fuzion is the one iteration I dumped immediately on contact.
Me too. It just hurt my eyes. If flashing ink was available, it would have been used. I'd rate it as the second-worst DTP job I've ever seen, behind the Continuum time-travel game, which was just incompetent. Mike Pondsmith had put time into learning the DTP for Fuzion, but not on appreciating the difference between screen and print.

The basic difference in approach from GURPS, AFAICS, is that GURPS started by modelling less powerful people, and that still shows decades later. It's definitely harder to build normal people with a few focussed area of competence in Hero than in GURPS.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
This is Hero not Fuzion, but since it came up... I remember when Fuzion was first announced as combining Interlock d10 with Hero System, I thought, rather flippantly, "oh, so it's going to be Hero with a Life Path at the front..."
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I believe I acknowledged 'closed loopholes.' ;) Like, "why do you have a 10,000 CON?" &c
🤓 I started with the 1st ed of Champions, and explored it very thoroughly, I'm well aware of how rough it could be. It's just it wasn't nearly as... incomplete... as one might expect a 64pg version of a game that eventually topped 600pgs...

Well, it should be noted that part of that was it was, to be charitable, pretty abbreviated in spots. And a lot of the growth in the powers system over the years was for progressively more specialized advantages and limitations (and, admittedly, some fairly basic stuff that was just a pain in the behind to get right like summoning and all its variations. It wasn't like emulating shapeshifters early on wasn't pretty massively kludgy too...)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Well, it should be noted that part of that was it was, to be charitable, pretty abbreviated in spots. And a lot of the growth in the powers system over the years was for progressively more specialized advantages and limitations (and, admittedly, some fairly basic stuff that was just a pain in the behind to get right like summoning and all its variations. It wasn't like emulating shapeshifters early on wasn't pretty massively kludgy too...)
Yep. You could do stuff, like there was an example of a shapechanger "Flight, special effect: turns into an eagle" "Growth: turns into a giant Ape" etc... Yeah, that's stretching F/X pretty far. But, you could do a shapechanger. Duplication would have been even more of a stretch: uh, Stretching, no visible connection? TK, can be attacked as if adjacent to the target? :oops:
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Yep. You could do stuff, like there was an example of a shapechanger "Flight, special effect: turns into an eagle" "Growth: turns into a giant Ape" etc... Yeah, that's stretching F/X pretty far. But, you could do a shapechanger. Duplication would have been even more of a stretch: uh, Stretching, no visible connection? TK, can be attacked as if adjacent to the target? :oops:

The problem with the quick-and-dirty shapeshifting methods was that they, in practice, usually only handled part of it, and were throwing in things for free (and potentially not answering other questions) at the same time. They provided at least some disguise capability, while not supplying other things they should (because the multipower slot would get more and more convoluted if you did that).

Honestly, it was just flat out something the system was handling back then. You can argue the modern versions only handle it in kind of complicated way, but at least they've got their arms around how to do so. And as you say, summoning was even worse.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Honestly, it was just flat out something the system was handling back then. You can argue the modern versions only handle it in kind of complicated way, but at least they've got their arms around how to do so. And as you say, summoning was even worse.
I still remember the kind of loophole-stretching some of my friends used to do back in the 4E days, to get as much bang as they could for their buck. It's not bad play, but if you let it slide enough, it penalizes the players who aren't pushy about their characters' powers, who play within their defined power set. It's part of the art of Hero GMing that is hard to learn but sticks with you when you do.
 

DrunkonDuty

he/him
The figured stats are no longer figured; they're bought just like primaries, from a fixed base. So no free SPD from Dex 40, no free PD from high (I can't remember if that's STR or CON)...

If anything, 6th left the worst math in (VPPs, Multipowers, and ECs), and pulled out the most easily understood math out. No violence to the playing, only the designing.

Thanks. I thought it was probably the removal of figured stats, but I wasn't sure. This is one of the things I've adopted in my homebrew rules. Figured stats was always far too open to abuse. Especially if you allowed selling back characteristics.

I am really impressed with the Basic Rulebook for 6e in that regard - 136 pages covering character creation and playing the game and it didn’t seem to lack any key content in comparison to the combined 688 pages of the two core books.

Hmm. I've somehow managed to miss the publication of this. I'll have to pop over to the Hero store and get the pdf.
 

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
I played it 30 years ago. Any system where you need to know math order of operations (FOIL) to build a character gets negative points from me. Making a character was painful (and I was taking differential equations at the time). There were 2 or maybe 3 frameworks for point buying (elemental, power pools, maybe more). Soooo many options that had non-obvious interactions. And in play action phases for speedy characters had a "matrix".

I much prefer the later versions of Fuzion with the "supers" add ons (like from the short lived Shards game).
I just need to point out that this is a common point that's made about Hero that's just not true. I have never heard it mentioned in terms of FOIL for math issues, but it's fairly common to hear it uses differential equations. It does not.

There are two kinds of Hero games: Heroic and Superheroic. For heroic games (action movie, pulp adventure, fantasy games like RPGs) the game is generally played with a "pick from a list" for powers/spells/abilities, and this means there's nothing more complex than addition and subtraction. There are spell grimoires with pre made spells, along with prewritten "feats". You just pick from a list.

Things get more complicated when you use the powers rules as a part of Superheroic games, but there are also books with prebuilt powers you can use to just pick things from a list.

The way that powers get complicated is that you buy a base power and then add advantages and limitations to it. This requires you to multiply the cost for advantages, and then divide for limitations. For the math averse, there are actual tables in the rulebook.

The point about frameworks for powers is something you only use in campaigns with powers, but there are three kinds of them:

A multipower, where you have a certain reserve of total points, and then split them between powers. So if you have flight + force field + light blast, you'd have a total number of points available and would split them between the three. That's an advanced option. A wizard who has a lot of spells but can only use a small number at once does this.

A power pool is like a multipower, but you can use it to create new things on the fly. This is the most advanced option in the game, and is used for characters like Green Lantern who can do just about anything. It is exceptionally uncommon in most games.

And finally there is the Elemental Control. This is a way to make characters with a lot of powers that work around a unified theme. So a fire based character or so on. This is another rule that is used only in Superheroic games, and it also was removed in the latest edition of the rules.

Hero is on the crunchier end of gaming. It gives you the option to build just about any character you can imagine. I've run it with the equivalent of low level D&D all the way to cosmic powered games with near godlike power.

The game Mutants and Masterminds is an evolution of Hero that gives you about 80% of what you can get with Hero in a much streamlined package.

Hero is definitely not the game for everyone, but it also isn't a terror. In play, the biggest issue tends to be that you roll a fair number of dice for attack damage, but I always see that as a feature and not a drawback. There is an option to make standard results (i.e. a 3 for a d6) instead of rolling if you like. I've played in games where a 12d6 attack might be 4d6+28 for instance.

So that's my take on Hero. I'd love to discuss in more detail if folks are interested.
 

DrunkonDuty

he/him
@SteveC (and anyone else who's got an opinion) How do you feel about the removal of elemental controls from 6th ed?

I gotta say I think it's for the best. ECs are very open to disagreements about what qualifies as "unified." And that's before you get people just plain taking the piss. For example, I've seen "EC Super Powers" on one guy's character sheet.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
@SteveC (and anyone else who's got an opinion) How do you feel about the removal of elemental controls from 6th ed?

I gotta say I think it's for the best. ECs are very open to disagreements about what qualifies as "unified." And that's before you get people just plain taking the piss. For example, I've seen "EC Super Powers" on one guy's character sheet.

I invented it (more or less), and I think in the end of the day its probably a better choice to have gotten rid of it. All it really did was hide some costs while privileging certain types of characters over others.
 

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