Grapple - Str check or not?

[Wavestone]

The question is more or less the one in the subject header..

I have an effect that gives a bonus to strength checks (if you're interested, its a soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum..). Now, the question - does it apply to grapple? The text in the book specifically mentions bull rushing and breaking down doors as examples of Strength checks.

From another post, someone said that a grapple check isnt a strength check, but its own type of check, namely a grapple check.. He also tipped me to the possibility of using trip instead, as that was a better use of a str check.

So, would it make sense for a monk to go for this soulmeld, spending 3 feats to get a +6 bonus to str checks, and a +6 bonus to unarmed damage at Monk6?

In case anyone wants details: Azurin Monk taking the feats Shape soulmeld(Mauling Gauntlets), Open least Chakra, and one incarnum feat of choice.. with monk bonus feats of Imp. Grapple, Combat Reflexes and Imp. Trip.

Would be real nice if one could be both a grapple-and-trip fiend, instead of only a trip-fiend..


-Wavestone

 

[lukelightning]

Technically a grapple check is not a strength check. A strength check would be d20+str bonus; grapple includes your BAB so it is basically an attack modified by size.

 

[Raylis]

a grapple check is: 1d0+base attack bonus+strength modifier+size (if any)+special modifiers (racial bonuses, improved grapple etc)

so in short, anything that that helps your strength will help your grapple

~Raylis

 

[isoChron]

But it's not a strength check like breaking walls or such ...

or every melee attack could be called a strenght check, too.

 

[andargor]

I have an effect that gives a bonus to strength checks (if you're interested, its a soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum..). Now, the question - does it apply to grapple? The text in the book specifically mentions bull rushing and breaking down doors as examples of Strength checks.

From another post, someone said that a grapple check isnt a strength check, but its own type of check, namely a grapple check.. He also tipped me to the possibility of using trip instead, as that was a better use of a str check.

A grapple check is different from a Strength check.

Bull Rush specifically mentions "you and the defender make opposed Strength checks". So do Charge, Overrun, and Trip mention Strength checks.

Further:

Grapple Checks

Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

It's effectively a melee attack, and hence lends weight to isoChron's comment.

Andargor

 

[0-hr]

If you can make iterative attacks and use the iterative to make another grapple check, does it use your BAB -5?

What about a defender forced to make multiple grapple checks in a round? I'm guessing they use the same mods for every one right?

 

[Infiniti2000]

If you can make iterative attacks and use the iterative to make another grapple check, does it use your BAB -5?

Yes. Specifically because "...but at successively lower base attack bonuses." Notice that the BAB actually changes. This creates a potential world of pain for adjudicating PA and CE, etc., but most (all?) people ignore such issues.

What about a defender forced to make multiple grapple checks in a round? I'm guessing they use the same mods for every one right?

They use their full BAB.

 

[boolean]

Yes. Specifically because "...but at successively lower base attack bonuses." Notice that the BAB actually changes. This creates a potential world of pain for adjudicating PA and CE, etc., but most (all?) people ignore such issues.

Not true. Power Attack and Combat Expertise apply a penalty to attack rolls, they don't actually reduce your base attack.
A chatacter with a base attack of +6 still gets two attacks with a full attack, even if he power attacks for 1 or more.

 

[irdeggman]

Let's check other sources.

From the SRD:

Grapple Checks
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.
If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

From the FAQ:

I have a monk with the Vow of Poverty feat (from Book of Exalted Deeds). Does the exalted strike bonus apply to grapple, sunder, disarm, and trip attempts?

The exalted strike bonus gained by a character who has taken Vow of Poverty applies only on attack and damage rolls. Unless something is described as an attack roll or a damage roll, the bonus doesn’t apply.
• The touch attack made to start a grapple is an attack roll (so the bonus would apply to this roll), but a grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus the bonus wouldn’t apply to the grapple check. Likewise, the touch attack made to start a trip attack would gain the bonus, but the Strength check you make to trip the defender is not an attack roll and wouldn’t gain the bonus.
• To attempt a disarm attack or a sunder attack, you make an attack roll opposed by the defender’s attack roll, so the exalted strike bonus would apply.

Can you always use Escape Artist instead of a Strength check when you’re grappling, or is this only for escaping a grapple?

You don’t make a Strength check when grappling; you make a grapple check, which is like a melee attack roll. (See Grapple Checks in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). If a foe has grappled or pinned you, you can make an Escape Artist check to escape the grapple or break the pin. You cannot use an Escape Artist check for anything other than escape. That is, you can’t use an Escape Artist check to establish a hold, damage your opponent, draw a light weapon, move, establish a pin, use the opponent’s weapon, or even to oppose your foe’s grapple check when the foe is trying to do any of those things to you.

From Rules of the Game (all about Grappling)

A grapple check is just like a melee attack roll, except that a special size modifier replaces your normal size modifier. In regular melee combat, smaller creatures get both an attack bonus and an Armor Class bonus. When grappling, the advantage goes to the bigger opponent. Table 7-1 in the Monster Manual shows size modifiers for regular and grappling combat. Page 156 in the Player's Handbook also shows special size modifiers for grappling.

Because a grapple check is an opposed check, the combatant with the higher total wins the check. If the check is a tie, the combatant with the highest total grapple modifier (base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier + any miscellaneous that might apply). If there is a tie and both combatants have the same grapple modifier, roll again to break the tie.

If you win the opposed check, you deal unarmed strike damage to your foe (1d3 points of nonlethal damage for most Medium characters) and you have your foe in your grasp.

If you lose the opposed check, your foe avoids your grasp.

Well Rules of the Game didn't provide anything IMO.

But putting together the other sources did.

The grab is an attack roll - so all attack bonuses should normally apply.

The grapple itself is neither an attack roll nor a Strength check, it is a grapple check. It is similar to an attack roll but is not an attack roll. It specificaly states it is a grapple check and not an attack nor a strength check, it is "special".

Well that is how I read it anyway.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not true. Power Attack and Combat Expertise apply a penalty to attack rolls, they don't actually reduce your base attack.
A chatacter with a base attack of +6 still gets two attacks with a full attack, even if he power attacks for 1 or more.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not really trying to derail the thread, but consider if you allowed PA to apply to grapple checks (which as irdeggman illustrated is at least debatable). If you have a BAB of +6 and you grapple twice, your second grapple will be at BAB +1. The quote I provided previously showed this as the way it works. PA doesn't reduce your BAB, but if you choose to PA at +5, then it becomes undefined at best on your second attack when you actually have a BAB of +1. The PA +5 is technically impossible no because it needs to reduce the BAB, but because it is limited by the BAB.

As I said, most people ignore this issue because it requires a number of assumptions and a lot of debate.