Grappling rules & beholders

[Deimodius]

In a recent session the heroes found themselves facing a beholder who flew up out of his pit lair. The beholder lost initiative, and one of the strong PCs preceded to jump onto and grapple the beholder. The players (some of whom also DM) argued that the beholder could not move without breaking the grapple, as per the rules, even though he was not actually pinned. (The rules state a grappled character can not move). I argued that a beholder does not need to uses legs, or wings to move, and thus should be able to move regardless of the grapple.

So how should/does it really work? A beholder does not require the use of any limbs to move, so why shouldn't it be able to fly (as long as its not weighted down) while grappled?

As a result of strict adherance to the rules, the beholder couldn't break the grapple (beholders aren't strong) and couldn't use it's eye rays without overcoming an incredibly high DC. It was SOL. The party preceded to destroy it in only two rounds.

 

[the Jester]

First, let me just say that picturing a big strong fighter grappling a beholder really made my morning.

Having said that much, I might agree that the beholder can't move while grappled- though that's a very tricky question, as it has a supernatural flight ability. Let's put it this way: if you grapple someone with a fly spell going, can they still fly with it?

If not, how do you ever get that wonderful cinematic moment when the villain and hero ascend into the sky, struggling for supremacy, until they victor falls to earth from above (as the loser was doing the ascending part)?

As to the eye rays, well, I'd say an eye ray takes no more concentration than a natural attack for a beholder and that the grappler in question would be in deep trouble staring all those eyes in the face, so to speak.

 

[Seravin]

In a recent session the heroes found themselves facing a beholder who flew up out of his pit lair. The beholder lost initiative, and one of the strong PCs preceded to jump onto and grapple the beholder. The players (some of whom also DM) argued that the beholder could not move without breaking the grapple, as per the rules, even though he was not actually pinned. (The rules state a grappled character can not move). I argued that a beholder does not need to uses legs, or wings to move, and thus should be able to move regardless of the grapple.

So how should/does it really work? A beholder does not require the use of any limbs to move, so why shouldn't it be able to fly (as long as its not weighted down) while grappled?

As a result of strict adherance to the rules, the beholder couldn't break the grapple (beholders aren't strong) and couldn't use it's eye rays without overcoming an incredibly high DC. It was SOL. The party preceded to destroy it in only two rounds.

For what it's worth as a DM I'd agree that as the beholder doesn't use any appendages to move it could still do so while grappled (presuming he was within his weight limit of course).
Also, a beholder's flight is listed explicitly as an extraordinary ability, not just normal movement. Extraordinary abilities aren't normally hampered by a grapple. Of course that's just my interpretation, but one I think is valid.

What's with the DC to use it's eye rays? They're Supernatural abilities - no AoO and no need to concentrate to use them - they just happen. A little harsh for someone grappling a beholder perhaps, but no more than they deserve if they want to wrestle an explosive beach ball.

Though to be fair, since there's no facing in the game you could always rule that the grappler was only ever in one firing arc of the eye rays (all usable at once) - unless the grappler said he jumped on top of the beholder.

 

[Deimodius]

The rules lawyer of my group states that using a Spell like ability in a grapple requires a DC20+Spell Level Concentration check to pull off, so unless your beholder has lots of ranks in Concentration, or an incredibly high CON, it's unlikely to work.

 

[dravot]

The rules lawyer of my group states that using a Spell like ability in a grapple requires a DC20+Spell Level Concentration check to pull off, so unless your beholder has lots of ranks in Concentration, or an incredibly high CON, it's unlikely to work.

But the Eye Tyrant's eyestalk attacks aren't spell-like...they're supernatural in origin, so they aren't subject to a concentration check.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

For what it's worth as a DM I'd agree that as the beholder doesn't use any appendages to move it could still do so while grappled (presuming he was within his weight limit of course).

With a Strength score of 10, the beholder can fly 20' if carrying no more than 33 pounds, and 15' if carrying up to 100 pounds. It can't fly at all if carrying more than 100 pounds. Unless the fighter is pretty darn small, the beholder lacked the Strength to fly while grappled. (See table 9-1, PH page 162)

As for whether or not the beholder can fly at all while grappled, I can't find anything in the rules that state it specifically can't, so I'd allow it - assuming the grappler weighs less than 100 pounds with equipment (not likely).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There's nothing preventing the beholder from flipping over and grinding the fighter into paste, then eating the delicious paste.

It has no wings, so how does the fighter stop it from moving anyway but upwards?

 

[Deimodius]

Sir whiskers: I'm not sure that encumbrance should apply to a Beholder's ability to fly. If a person (or creatures dependant onlegs to move) is carrying to much weight, the reason the can not move is that they are forced to towards the ground and can not move their legs do to the weight on them.

If the Beholder's ability to fly does not depend on its body (ie, magical/psionic) then unless it is carrying so much it is physically pushed to the ground, how should encumberance stope it from "levitating" sideways (which is really what a beholder's flight is).

 

[Nail]

The Beholder absolutely positively CAN use his eye rays while grappled. They are Supernatural powers, and thus NOT AT ALL subject to concentration checks. Check out p. 315 in the Monster Manual (3.5e).

 

[Nail]

....that said: If the Ftr jumped on the beholder, and the beholder can't carry that much weight.....sounds like both it and the Ftr are in for a fall........