Graz'zt and Tharizdun Connections

[ferratus]

Okay, I've been reading stuff about Graz'zt and one thing I keep noticing is that many sources that feature Graz'zt inevitably refer to Tharizdun.

Graz'zt introduces Eclavdra the drow priestess to the worship of the Elder Elemental Eye, who is also known as Tharizdun.

Graz'zt is the lover/prisoner of the witch Iggwilv, who inhabits the "Caves of Tsojcanth" the former domain of a wizard who once imprisoned an avatar of Tharizdun.

The cambion Iuz, the son of Graz'zt and Iggwilv, is deeply involved with the "Temple of Elemental Evil" which also involved the "Elder Elemental Eye".

Graz'zt was tasked by Asmodeus to retrieve the seed of evil at the centre of the Abyss, which was hurled there by Tharizdun.

So I think there is enough there to be curious about what Graz'zt is plotting that involves Tharizdun. Graz'zt's final goal seems to be to conquer and unify the Abyss so he can destroy and extinguish all of the astral dominions.

What are your theories as to what role Tharizdun is going to play in that final plan?

 

[Shemeska]

I wouldn't assume any continuity or connection between the 1e-3.5e lore on Graz'zt and Tharizdun and the 4e lore on either of them.

Looking at a lot of the lore hinting at a connection, it's probably more to a stacking of much of the 1e lore being from a few early sources. The 2e and 3e sources on either of them have a lot more details, but nothing resembling a connection implied between them.

As for the 4e material, I'm not sure there's enough detail out in 4e yet to make a connection, though it's a plot hook to be sure that a DM could expand upon.

 

[ferratus]

Eh, if nothing is being contradicted I'm not sure why you shouldn't keep the accumulated lore that fits with the 4e origin story.

But mostly, I figure that Graz'zt would have plots that involve everybody somehow, and connecting Graz'zt to Tharizdun might be intriguing. I'm just not sure how Graz'zt would feel about Tharizdun. Does he think that awakening Tharizdun to unmake the universe is a good idea because he is a demon, or is he too intelligent and interested in his ambition and plotting to desire such a fate? Does he think Tharizdun is a useful tool, or does he desire to serve Tharizdun because despite his subtle plots, he is actually stark raving mad?

 

[demiurge1138]

The final 3.5 Demonomicon was on Graz'zt, and it suggested that his father could be Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos. Who could easily be a substitute for Tharzidun, now couldn't he?

 

[fireinthedust]

The 4e information hints at how Tharizdun is effectively at the root of the Abyss. Grazzt has always been a power player down there, even in Throne of Bloodstone, so how this all fits in is any DMs guess.

Keep in mind Baphomet has the female progenitor (what's her name, "night" or something? veiled lady, kept in a tower of bones) in his 4e base.

HOWEVER I would state that in 4e the goal is to have demons be destroyers. This is to contrast the Astral nine hells, who are tempters; they don't want change, they want power forever, building themselves up.

So basically, can we have Grazzt as a plotter whose goal is to slowly take apart the clock of creation? vs. someone who would want to control it for themselves? Ie: can one communicate to players the difference during a campaign involving these characters?

I think the idea of the spiral symbol of Tharizdun, for me, is like a drain that's been unplugged. At the bottom of the Elemental Chaos is this unplugging drain of entropy. Theoretically that's the Abyss, with Tharizdun at the center. Puts a new spin on the Abyss mentality.

 

[Keveras]

Keep in mind Baphomet has the female progenitor (what's her name, "night" or something? veiled lady, kept in a tower of bones) in his 4e base.

Pale Night