Green Ronin and 4E

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It easy for monsters, yes, but not so easy for all the other aspects of the system - skill checks, traps, etc. To make it really interesting, I think you need the system. Setting, though, I can definitely see systemless, but not so much adventures. I think systemless adventures could be fairly boring, and/or require a lot of work.

Certainly it's easier if there's a base to start from, which is why the D20 Freeport Companion is a good choice even for 4E Freeport games.

 

[Elorebaen]

Well said, and good luck.

 

[grickherder]

I have never understood why generic isn't more popular. Its editionless and never goes out of date.

I would even go for generic modules. I can get stat blocks from anywhere.

One of the best things that ever happened to me as far as gaming goes was coming into contact with universal rules systems like Fudge. Even better was running successful campaigns with them.

The divorcing of setting and specific rules in ones mind is the quickest way to open up millions of story concepts for game use.

I often find it funny that people will talk about a given work of fiction, tv show, etc., and say "Someone should make an RPG of this."

I'm with Treebore. Generic is the bomb. I can take any idea and integrate it into a game. I've been taking the opportunity to snap up a lot of 3.x stuff for use with 4e. The rules in the thing don't matter, the awesome ideas do.

The key to "converting" between systems is to not. Don't try to make a framework to convert stats from one system to another. Simply ask yourself what the thing is in real language or story terms and then try to represent it in the new rules.

And Freeport is cool. Very, very cool. I'm enjoying using my Savage World Freeport Companion and The Pirate's Guide to Freeport with 4E.

EDIT: I haven't listened to it yet (just downloaded it), but here's an interview with Chris Pramas about systemless settings on the The Game's the Thing Podcast:
http://thegamesthething.com/index.php?post_id=341931#

 

[tenkar]

I am curious to see future developments. With Kenzer's announcement that they are releasing 4e material without signing anything with WotC, right now anything seems possible. It will be prudent to wait and see what comes out of it, but if Kenzer gets away with it we could go back to the OGL situation, with lots of 3rd parties producing gaming books.

Why wouldn't KenzerCo "get away with it"? They published 2e compatible books and had no issues. If you don't sign on to the GSL it has no hold over you. Publish within the bounds of copyright law and you are safe. In KenzerCo's case, I do believe one of the principle owners is a copyright lawyer.

 

[grickherder]

Why wouldn't KenzerCo "get away with it"?

People have been heavily propagandized when it comes to copyrights, trademarks, licenses, etc., over the last few years. Many think that our rights in those matters are less than what they really are. When they hear of someone making stuff like Kenzer is doing with Kalamar or the 4e Folio from Green Ronin, they envision swarms of lawyers making sure such people don't "get away with it."

The idea that one doesn't have to accept WotC's terms in the GSL is shocking to some.

Statements like Mr. Pramas' earlier in this thread can often be too much for those with such a simplistic view of copyright law:

"Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, so people could take 4E ideas and bring them into 3E is they wanted. They just need to careful to rewrite everything because specific expression is protected by copyright."

And it goes further than that. You can take 4E ideas and use them in any system, under any license you have access to (including your rights under copyright law). There's nothing stopping someone, for example, from taking a 4E concept, making an original expression of it and releasing it under the OGL, Creative Commons, GPL, etc.,. As we speak, people are working on exactly such a project to OGLify 4E's core rules.

I'm a fan of GR's stuff. But I'm also a 4E fan. I'm definitely going to check out the Folio and any other 4E stuff they produce. True 20 is also very cool.

 

[Henry]

People have been heavily propagandized when it comes to copyrights, trademarks, licenses, etc., over the last few years. Many think that our rights in those matters are less than what they really are.

The real reason that people are making assumptions is because of the OGL and its safe harbor - WotC originally skirted the copyright question entirely by making that license the way they did, and people took the OGL at face value. Now, however, publishers are about to, since the first time in at least a decade, about to see just how compatible with D&D they can be without violating copyright law.

And it goes further than that. You can take 4E ideas and use them in any system, under any license you have access to (including your rights under copyright law). There's nothing stopping someone, for example, from taking a 4E concept, making an original expression of it and releasing it under the OGL, Creative Commons, GPL, etc.,. As we speak, people are working on exactly such a project to OGLify 4E's core rules.

On the other hand, these people have to be VERY careful to make sure they don't violate copyright rules while doing this. In their desire to accomplish it, they can open themselves to a lot of trouble all the while thinking they are not vulnerable to such. It's really interesting when people whose day jobs are lawyers start making products, but they just as human and possible to make a mistake as someone else -- they're just less likely to do so because they're better informed.

Kenzer, mind you, I won't take bets on because he has had some sort of extra agreement with WotC over compatible materials in the past, but I'm curious to see where they all go in the end.

 

[RFisher]

It easy for monsters, yes, but not so easy for all the other aspects of the system - skill checks, traps, etc. To make it really interesting, I think you need the system. Setting, though, I can definitely see systemless, but not so much adventures. I think systemless adventures could be fairly boring, and/or require a lot of work.

I’d suggest giving it a try. During the years when I didn’t play any form of D&D, my group took D&D modules and treated them as systemless. We ignored the stats and made up whatever made sense for the system we were using on-the-fly. It was neither boring nor a lot of work.

 

[amatriain]

Why wouldn't KenzerCo "get away with it"?

Why wouldn't they, certainly? I certainly hope they do. However it's in the best interest for WotC that they don't, and my uninformed guess is they'll try to stop a situation in which the GSL can be safely ignored from happening. It makes no sense redacting the GSL in such harsh terms if they are not gonna try to enforce it.

I didn't live up close the copyright wars in the 80s (lack of internet back then prevented it) but the situation now seems much more interesting. There is a rich ecosystem of 3rd party companies releasing books now, nurtured by the OGL. As some have said, WotC would have a hard time if they try to put the genie inside the bottle again.

As we speak, people are working on exactly such a project to OGLify 4E's core rules.

That sounds awesome. Could you give us more info?

 

[Greg K]

We are considering it. Certainly we'll be checking out the Beta next month.

As a fan of Steve Kenson's Master Class Books, M&M, and True20, I would prefer to see GR have Mr. Kenson do his take on a revised DND 3e.

 

[CaptainChaos]

As a fan of Steve Kenson's Master Class Books, M&M, and True20, I would prefer to see GR have Mr. Kenson do his take on a revised DND 3e.

I don't think it'd make much sense for GR to do yet another variant of d20, particularly when they already have True20.