Greenflame Blade Cantrip from SCAG, Courtesy of EXTRA LIFE

Cool. How did you get the link? It's not showing up as live on either the Extra Life page or the D&D website page.


The wording of the cantrip feels a little awkward to me but I think I like the overall effect. If I'm reading it correctly, it essentially works like this:

1st level
1st target: normal attack effects
2nd target: ability mod fire dmg

5th level
1st target: normal attack effects + 1d8 fire dmg
2nd target: 1d8+mod fire dmg

11th level
1st target: normal attack effects + 2d8 fire dmg
2nd target: 2d8+mod fire dmg

17th level
1st target: normal attack effects + 3d8 fire dmg
2nd target: 3d8+mod fire dmg


Is that right?

 

[Jaappleton]

Agreed. My issue is that I'm impatient and that my DM would allow for its usage now if I had a definitive answer. Though since it's essentially guaranteed for Wizards, High Elf essentially becomes a prime pick for my next character if a Charisma based caster can't traditionally access it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

A College of Lore Bard can pick it up at 5th level through his class features. That lets him melee almost as well as College of Valor (depending on weapon choice and magic), until 17th level when College of Valor can use Battle Magic + greenflame blade to completely leave the Lore bard in the dust.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing either.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

A College of Lore Bard can pick it up at 5th level through his class features. That lets him melee almost as well as College of Valor (depending on weapon choice and magic), until 17th level when College of Valor can use Battle Magic + greenflame blade to completely leave the Lore bard in the dust.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe even Battle Magic wouldn't allow for the casting of Greenflame blade, as it's considered casting a cantrip, not simply making a weapon attack.

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe even Battle Magic wouldn't allow for the casting of Greenflame blade, as it's considered casting a cantrip, not simply making a weapon attack.

Cantrips are spells. Spells taken via Magical Secrets count as bard spells. A Valor Bard could cast GFB and get the bonus action attack. It's a way of keeping your second attack if you rely on GFB as an Attack replacement. Of course, that eats up your bonus action in terms of action economy. At 14th level, you'd be giving up your bonus action for an extra 2d8 fire damage on a single target and 2d8+Cha on a possible second target nearby.

Sorcerers with Distant Spell can actually make GFB work with reach weapons. This actually gives some crazy synergy with the Storm Sorcerer (the likely included Sorcerous Origin because Swashbuckler) multiclassed with Fighter/Paladin/Bladelock. It still wouldn't affect the range of the secondary target, but it would allow for reach weapons to use GFB. Heart of the Storm would also kick in with each GFB use, regardless of using Distant Spell.

 

[Jaelommiss]

Sorcerers with Distant Spell can actually make GFB work with reach weapons. This actually gives some crazy synergy with the Storm Sorcerer (the likely included Sorcerous Origin because Swashbuckler) multiclassed with Fighter/Paladin/Bladelock. It still wouldn't affect the range of the secondary target, but it would allow for reach weapons to use GFB. Heart of the Storm would also kick in with each GFB use, regardless of using Distant Spell.

Heart of the Storm would never activate on GFB because it is neither 1) "a spell other than a cantrip" nor 2) a spell "that deals lightning or thunder damage."

The Spell Sniper feat might be a superior alternative to the Distant Spell metamagic. No cost to use (other than acquiring the feat) and it provides the cantrip itself, allowing any class with spellcasting to use it. One potential reading of the spell is that the range mentioned in the spell description refers to the spell's range, not the reach with the weapon used ("you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within range"). This would potentially allow for a greatsword attack at 10 foot range, or 20 if Distant Spell is coupled with Spell Sniper, regardless of the weapon's regular limitations. PHB 202 supports this reading with the statement "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range." The target referred to by GFB is the enemy attacked. Changing the fluff a little bit so that it is a giant flaming extension of the weapon that makes the attack would explain how weapon attacks are being made at a distance.

Edit: A paladin or ranger could pick up Spell Sniper at level 4. Sword and board smiting at 10 feet is horrifying to contemplate.

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

Heart of the Storm would never activate on GFB because it is neither 1) "a spell other than a cantrip" nor 2) a spell "that deals lightning or thunder damage."

The Spell Sniper feat might be a superior alternative to the Distant Spell metamagic. No cost to use (other than acquiring the feat) and it provides the cantrip itself, allowing any class with spellcasting to use it. One potential reading of the spell is that the range mentioned in the spell description refers to the spell's range, not the reach with the weapon used ("you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within range"). This would potentially allow for a greatsword attack at 10 foot range, or 20 if Distant Spell is coupled with Spell Sniper, regardless of the weapon's regular limitations. PHB 202 supports this reading with the statement "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range." The target referred to by GFB is the enemy attacked. Changing the fluff a little bit so that it is a giant flaming extension of the weapon that makes the attack would explain how weapon attacks are being made at a distance.

Your reading of "Whenever you cast a spell other than a cantrip that deals lightning or thunder damage" differs from mine. Without proper punctuation to separate the qualifiers, it reads like it's only excluding Shocking Grasp and Thunderclap with language that excludes other future cantrips of the same damage types. If the power was meant to exclude all cantrips and non-L/T spells, then saying "spell of 1st level or higher that deals lightning or thunder damage" would have stated that much more clearly.

I'd be willing to accept that my interpretation is wrong, provided the final version has appropriate language to that effect or designer comments back up that ruling. I'm merely looking at the new materials with Munchkin lenses to see what I have to look for at my tables, once the book is AL legal. That synergy with Storm was too big to overlook.

Didn't even realize about the Spell Sniper synergy. I expect that Crawford and Mearls are going to get a lot of tweets about that combo in the near future.

Edit: I think the melee weapon's reach still plays a factor in the spell's usage. There was a long-winded thread back on the WotC forum that confirmed that movement during a spell was only allowed if the spell explicitly called for it, such as Expeditious Retreat letting the player Dash as part of the initial casting.

Edit 2: A variant Human EK 16 would be a mean SOB with OAs; plenty capable of getting Spell Sniper, Warcaster, Sentinel, Polearm Master, and GWM without giving up Str 20. A Dex EK could instead forego PAM and GWM by only taking 8 levels in EK and going Swashbuckler the rest of the way with a whip. As a matter of fact, I have my Season 4 build. Time to create a Belmont...

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

Cantrips are spells. Spells taken via Magical Secrets count as bard spells. A Valor Bard could cast GFB and get the bonus action attack. It's a way of keeping your second attack if you rely on GFB as an Attack replacement. Of course, that eats up your bonus action in terms of action economy. At 14th level, you'd be giving up your bonus action for an extra 2d8 fire damage on a single target and 2d8+Cha on a possible second target nearby.

Ah, I was misreading the poster's intent: I thought he/she/them was implying that you could cast a full spell, and then use GFB for the bonus action attack. Using it to get a second mundane attack as a bonus action totally works, though it's seven levels behind when the Eldritch Knight can do it.

 

[Pauper]

One potential reading of the spell is that the range mentioned in the spell description refers to the spell's range, not the reach with the weapon used ("you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within range"). This would potentially allow for a greatsword attack at 10 foot range, or 20 if Distant Spell is coupled with Spell Sniper, regardless of the weapon's regular limitations. PHB 202 supports this reading with the statement "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range."

The problem with this interpretation is the text of Greenflame Blade itself: "You must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within range, otherwise the spell fails." (emphasis mine) If the spell empowered a weapon to make an attack at the spell's range regardless of the weapon's reach, then the spell could not possibly fail and the text indicating such would be pointless.

Edit: A paladin or ranger could pick up Spell Sniper at level 4. Sword and board smiting at 10 feet is horrifying to contemplate.

Here's the other problem with using Spell Sniper to acquire Greenflame Blade -- if the spell is a wizard cantrip (and there's no indication it's anything other than that, at present), then Spell Sniper directs you to use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability for the spell. The same area of the rules indicates that when making an attack with a spell, you use your spellcasting ability for that attack: "Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll to determine whether the spell effect hits the intended target. Your attack bonus with a spell attack equals your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers." (PH, p.205) Note that Greenflame Blade is ambiguous on this point -- it says to make a "melee attack with a weapon", not a "melee weapon attack" or a "melee spell attack with a weapon" (see Spiritual Weapon for an example of the latter). So it's possible to interpret that a paladin or ranger who uses Spell Sniper to gain Greenflame Blade as a cantrip from the wizard list must use Intelligence to make the Greenflame Blade melee attack, not Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, or Charisma -- the same would be true when using Magic Initiate to gain the cantrip, as you use the spellcasting ability score of the class from which you gained the cantrip, which is Intelligence for wizard spells.

The spell probably should have been designed like the various Smite spells; castable as a bonus action and applying on the next hit with a melee weapon rather than as a spellcasting action that incorporates a melee attack, but I suspect the spell's designers weren't considering the possibility of non-wizards getting the cantrip on their spell list.

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

Judging by both the heading of the section it appears in "Cantrips for Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards" and the compact nature of the format as seen by both the ToC and Mastermind previews, I suspect that all spells in that section will be for all three classes for the sake of saving page space on an unnecessary list. A single sentence stating that all spells appear on each class' list would suffice at a fraction of the page real estate. Plus, there's justification for it being on the other class lists, instead of just Wizard. There's a distinct lack of cantrips absent for use with Bladelocks, and Sorcerers typically get most of the damaging stuff that Wizards get. The Favored Soul subclass just begs for GFB to cement its martial slant. Therefore, it's a safe assumption that the few new cantrips added are for all three classes. That means that Cha versions of the spells could very well exist too.

A spell like this also allows for DMs to treat combat more like a puzzle. Surround a high AC unit with some grunts who only Dodge to give your players a winnable combat of a higher difficulty.

 

[spectacle]

The spell probably should have been designed like the various Smite spells; castable as a bonus action and applying on the next hit with a melee weapon rather than as a spellcasting action that incorporates a melee attack, but I suspect the spell's designers weren't considering the possibility of non-wizards getting the cantrip on their spell list.

That would be OP, since you could then use GFB on the same turn as Extra Attack. Every melee character who isn't already using their bonus action each turn would want to pick up GFB to make one attack per turn hit a lot harder. I think the designers knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote the spell the way it is.