D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Minigiant]

Something doesn't quite add up. Throw in the various PR gaffes and catastrophes in the last year or so, the sudden and unexpected resignation of the head of WotC, and it suggests a brand in decline, or at least a corporation looking to stop the string of negative news by getting back to basics and shutting up whomever keeps generating more bad news. I don't have enough pieces of the puzzle yet (nor am I interested enough in chasing them down) to know what's going on, but I think the prevailing narrative about sales and the market and who's playing and more importantly who's buying D&D products gives off enough red flags to look like a whole freaking communist parade.

I also suspect that the online energy around the OSR might cause it to punch above its weight in terms of perception of their importance, but somehow catering to them or trying to woo them back to the fold seems to have been an on again off again theme with D&D.

It looks more like Hasbro is desperate for that nostalgic traditional brand money but old school board gamers and old school D&D fans are hard to please.

Whereas the young'ns are buying video games by the digital truckload.

However the heads can't get over the bookshelves of the old school players and are salivating over their money.

They trying to sell Venca when D&D waifus and husbandos and D&D Grand Strategy would print money.

 

[Remathilis]

The choice of Greyhawk is nostalgia bait for older fans and IP implantation for new fans.

Strixhaven, Eberron, or Nentir Vale are strictly better choices for an introductory setting and teaching material for a setting.

WotC has been trotting out Greyhawk nostalgia for better than half this edition. We have three and a half books with NPCs from Oerth (Mordenkainen twice, Tasha and Bigby) plus other Oerth NPCs (Vecna, Accerack) showing up in modules. Seems like it was about time they introduced the world so that all those references can have context.

 

[Minigiant]

WotC has been trotting out Greyhawk nostalgia for better than half this edition. We have three and a half books with NPCs from Oerth (Mordenkainen twice, Tasha and Bigby) plus other Oerth NPCs (Vecna, Accerack) showing up in modules. Seems like it was about time they introduced the world so that all those references can have context.

Shoulda done that years ago.

Leave the DMG for the educational setting.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Folks,

Please be aware that the aggressive stances some of you are taking, and the head-butting exchanges a couple of you are having, are getting noticed.

Do remember that this is a place for friendly conversation. If you are no longer feeling friendly, maybe it is time to bow out, before you say something unfriendly enough to be actionable.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Spelljammer may be an old setting, but the presentation of it was hardly classic. That said, I only know what the sales data from Amazon was for the books that it was highlighted to me, not for the others. If Radiant Citadel or Strixhaven for example, sold below expectations (I admit, I don't know what they expected, but it sold poorly relative to earlier titles) and The Deck of Many Things didn't (I have no idea if it did or didn't), then that implies a picture very different from WotC is hinting at where gen z players are a big cohort of customers looking for something that's not their dad's D&D.

Well, if we go with "spelljammer wasn't really a classic in terms of presentation" then... yeah, maybe customers ARE looking for something different.

Radiant Citadel was an adventure compendium, maybe that sells different. Strixhaven has VERY specific flavor, maybe that has something to do with it not selling as well. Deck of Many things is a supplement that is a very different product than the other two. I'm just wondering how accurate it is to look at two books being below expectations and determine that means there is a specific flavor want.

Something doesn't quite add up. Throw in the various PR gaffes and catastrophes in the last year or so, the sudden and unexpected resignation of the head of WotC, and it suggests a brand in decline, or at least a corporation looking to stop the string of negative news by getting back to basics and shutting up whomever keeps generating more bad news. I don't have enough pieces of the puzzle yet (nor am I interested enough in chasing them down) to know what's going on, but I think the prevailing narrative about sales and the market and who's playing and more importantly who's buying D&D products gives off enough red flags to look like a whole freaking communist parade.

There was a fairly in-depth video I watched not too long ago, which went over recent finances for the company. They aren't losing money. I'm not sure that the news to date is that many red flags. WotC doesn't seem to be in danger of crumbling and dying any time soon. Again, a "back to the games roots" approach is also explained by it being the 50th anniversary of the product.

I also suspect that the online energy around the OSR might cause it to punch above its weight in terms of perception of their importance, but somehow catering to them or trying to woo them back to the fold seems to have been an on again off again theme with D&D for many years now.

Maybe the devs are secretly sympathetic to their views. Maybe WotC are just control freaks and it burns them up that people can play D&D without playing their D&D. I dunno.

A lot of the online energy around OSR I've seen is... bad. Really bad. Which could very easily explain WoTC not wanting to associated with them. I also don't think we can take "for our anniversary, here is the first setting made for DnD" as some sort of secret sympathy to a certain view, or an effort to control people. That starts to smack of conspiracy thinking.

 

[Autumnal]

It makes sense to me - I know all about Appendix N but having a read a few of the books and stories, sometimes actually finding those inspirations in the actual setting is hard unless one looks at the Vancian magic system, or just the pure existence of a thief class or a barbarian class, etc.

I’ve been lectured by one of Gygax’s original players and one of Barker’s about how having a book/author as an inspiration has no implication at all that you may want to have anything from them in your play. At all. Ever. Both were completely baffled at the idea that you’d read a book and think “I want to play a character like that in a setting like that.” You should apparently take inspiration to go something that might well be completely different. What else?

As a lifelong West Coaster I had to do about of sitting on my hands and reminding myself how many great Midwestern fantasists there are who aren’t any more like that than I am.

 

[Desdichado]

There was a fairly in-depth video I watched not too long ago, which went over recent finances for the company. They aren't losing money. I'm not sure that the news to date is that many red flags. WotC doesn't seem to be in danger of crumbling and dying any time soon. Again, a "back to the games roots" approach is also explained by it being the 50th anniversary of the product.

No, clearly not. Even in a worst case scenario Monopoly Go can subsidize any number of poorly performing brands elsewhere.

 

[RedSquirrel]

PHB will have to stand in for all three; I'm not scanning all of them.

Gotcha. You scanned 'em.

It was easy since I bought digital copies from drivethrurpg years ago. Open up a pdf and the snip tool and hey. (Contrary to your implication that I went way out of my way to prove a point.) Screen shots of the PHB. Screen shots from BD&D. I could also do screen grabs from the MM and OD&D

Wait ... so, you didn't scan them. Not even the PH?
So, you were making that up.
Also—it was easy and yet, you didn't want to post more because you'd have to "scan" them.
Gotcha.

... and the Book of Vile Darkness or the Dungeon and Dragon issues that came out the same month

So you bought copies of Dragon and Dungeon magazines on DriveThruRPG? Interesting,
Before fourth edition? Fascinating, I wasn't aware that DriveThruRPG sells those magazines from 2002.

Good job, Hancock.


For anyone else curious here's a link to a search on DriveThruRPG, for "magazines" made by Wizards of the Coast.

 

[RedSquirrel]

Borrowed nostalgia is a thing, particularly for people.getting into something for the first time.

Seldom have more true words been written.
There's an old saying—

"There's none so zealous as the convert."

(Or something like that. I'm probably paraphrasing.)
It's true of those who just came to gaming (or anything, at all) and want to be part of it's history.
You're absolutely right. "Borrowed nostalgia" is absolutely a thing. It's not uncommon, for example, for someone to love an older sibling, parent, or aunt/uncle, and to listen to their nostalgia and play [whatever edition] and declare it "best". And, frankly, even though I haven't played some editions since I was a teenager, I think that's absolutely lovely and endearing.

But, also, there's positive and negative sides to every trope. The flip side of the coin, so to speak. Like, borrowed outrage. Or like grognards who are only 22. It's absolutely their right, but, I think it can sometimes fracture a community (and not just in gaming).

 

[Umbran]

Good job, Hancock.

Mod note:
I warned folks against this behavior.
You ignored that warning.
You are done in this discussion.