Grittier 4th Edition: Pointers

[Lackhand]

I was going to threadjack someone else with a thought that I had, but then realized that, even as rare an event as 'having a thought' is, I should be polite

How to make D&D 4th Edition a Grittier Game:
What is grit? I think it's a game where lives are cheap, combat brutal, and death common. I'd assume you'd want one player dead (edit: or, you know, PC. Sorry, Mr. Kulp!) per two or three combats. This should do it.

First: Whatever hero point rules there are, make spending them to cheat death unadvisable. Best guess: When you spend a hero point to dodge what would otherwise have killed you, take [a flaw]. That flaw could be a crippled limb, an insanity, clinging to life only via an unholy will and burning with the hatred of the damned, or similar. The player will probably want to retire the character anyway, which is *like* death, but with more (ahem) character-building potential.

Second: Starting PC hit-point buffer? I'd keep it. See Below.

Third: Increase the dice of every weapon by one die. Short swords do 2d6, longswords do 2d8, greatswords do 3d6. Sure, under the new rules, crits are always max damage, but here's a hint: with this rule, *every* blow is a crit.

Sure, the PCs mow down row after row of mook. Sure, spells are less effective than steel. But so what? The baddies doubled their damage on average, which means that characters have (ignoring the initial hit-point-boost) *halved* their hit points, effectively.

I wouldn't use these myself, since I like avoiding character churn or revolving-door-afterlives, but hey. Leave thoughts and jeers

PS: Obviously, this is all conjecture. Call me on assumptions I don't realize I'm making -- HP buffer is from saga, and I'm guessing it's thrice-starting-hit-dice. Action points are spoken of in R&C (I think?) but confirmed elsewhere (I also think?) and their mechanics plumbed from Saga. Weapon damages cribbed from 3.x, but the principle scales -- add extra dice to the bad guys' attacks. RBDMs will apply this rule asymmetrically to baddies only, and leave the players to stew as they normally do. Not intended for internal use; contact your physician if redness or swelling occurs.

 

[Zweischneid]

A good way in 3.0 for making the game a bit more gritty IMO was to agree with the players to multiclass into NPC-classes to variing degrees (i.e. only one level, every other level, etc..).

It gives players some hitpoints, saves and skills but scales down the spells and juicy abilities nicely without tinkering with the system (which, contrary to common believe is actually quite difficult if you don't want to shortend someone).

Obviously depends on the existence of (weak) NPC-classes and the nature of multiclassing in 4E.

Never mind of course all the beautiful illusions we've had back when 4e was announced... /sigh

 

[Lackhand]

I'm not sure I ever actually held that illusion, but I see no reason that whatever fix DMs had in 3.x wouldn't work in 4e for that specific problem. Separate grievance, you know?

But yes, I agree, getting the PCs to have 'dead levels' engritties them. So would that say that you actually want the opposite from what my solution proposed -- relatively more healthy and survivable heroes but with fewer powers?

'cause that's dead easy. Give out half as much XP and at the midpoint of every level, give out some hit points.

Optionally, allow the characters to accrue a +1 here, a +1 there, depending on what they're studying/facing. (this is what the NPCing gets them -- skill points, saves, attack bonus; it seems unnecessary to me, though.)

 

[DSRilk]

Don't have things scale. When calculating things like hp, attack bonus, saves, damage, etc. assume the character is always first level. If it's not gritty enough, cut initial hit points.

 

[EricNoah]

I don't agree that gritty means "more dead PCs". What I like, instead, is a better gray area between completely healthy and completely dead. Conditions that inflict movement penalties and other situations on wounded characters, so they are likely to react (perhaps) more realistically in combat when wounded (retreating, seeking cover, seeking ways to ambush enemies, etc.).

 

[Lackhand]

I don't agree that gritty means "more dead PCs". What I like, instead, is a better gray area between completely healthy and completely dead. Conditions that inflict movement penalties and other situations on wounded characters, so they are likely to react (perhaps) more realistically in combat when wounded (retreating, seeking cover, seeking ways to ambush enemies, etc.).

I suppose, but that's a death spiral, which is generally considered bad (edit: I think. I don't have any justification here, maybe death-spiral is just the thing?). Porting in the Saga condition track might be one way of going about this, but just making each attack more deadly forces characters to treat the half-hit point mark as though it were the "I only have 3 HP left!!!" mark, since it more or less doubles the damage output of mooks (which tend to swarm).

It doesn't actually apply a penalty, though, which I find not to my taste. If you did want to apply a penalty, you could consider -2 to every offense and defense at 1/2 hit points, and -5 to everything when below 10 hitpoints?

Or fatigued at 1/2, exhausted below 10.

 

[Hussar]

I'm not sure how it would be done in 4e, but, 3e was easy to make gritty.

Never, EVER fudge a die roll.

Combine that with no Fate/Luck/Action points and you'll have a dead PC every 3-5 sessions.

 

[Roger]

What is grit? I think it's a game where lives are cheap, combat brutal, and death common.

A character's HP equals his Constitution. At zero HP, a character dies.

That should about do it.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[I'm A Banana]

So a gritty D&D = more dead PC's?

How, exactly, is this entertaining for me as a player? I get to make an awesome character and have them horribly mangled/dead?

Where's the appeal for me? Why would I want it?

Answer this, and I think we're well on our way to figuring out exactly what a 'gritty' system is trying to do.

 

[Imaro]

So a gritty D&D = more dead PC's?

How, exactly, is this entertaining for me as a player? I get to make an awesome character and have them horribly mangled/dead?

Where's the appeal for me? Why would I want it?

Answer this, and I think we're well on our way to figuring out exactly what a 'gritty' system is trying to do.

I don't think anyone can answer that for you personally...but the popularity of systems like Warhammer Fantasy rpg, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu and nWoD (especially with mortals) attest to the fact that there are those who enjoy the challenge of this type of playstyle. It may not be for you but, there are plenty of people who feel snatching victory when the odds are against you is more exciting then winning when everything is stacked in your favor.