D&D 5E Guns and D&D - are we doing it wrong? An alternative

Chaosmancer

Legend
My experience with firearms is that most people overthink them. Most players who want to use a gun aren't looking for a high fidelity gun experience that is historically accurate. They just think guns are cool looking. And if your player is insisting on guns being the most powerful weapon, the deadliest thing in the setting, the pinnacle of power... then they are using guns as an excuse.

Anything short of a modern firearm is not going to deal as much damage as a ballista bolt would to a 5'7" human body. Plate Armor is not designed to survive a ballista bolt to the chest plate. Ballista bolts are incredibly fast as well. They still make attack rolls, they deal higher damage than a normal weapon does, but they are just massive crossbows.

So, a d10, one-handed pistol is perfectly fine. and a 1d12 two-handed rifle works well.
 

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Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
Guns discussions that want balance? Seems like a misplaced expectation

Literally one of the most famous idiomatic phrases in America "You don't bring a knife (or in this case sword, axe, glaive-guisarme, whatever) to a gun fight"

A gun should way outclass any other muscle powered weapon. And then there would literally be an arms race. Also, if you are the only person with a gun, my guess is waaaay more powerful entities are going to want that little gew-gaw. +1 Fun! (for the GM :ROFLMAO: )
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Literally one of the most famous idiomatic phrases in America "You don't bring a knife (or in this case sword, axe, glaive-guisarme, whatever) to a gun fight"
As an American I can assure you this phrase comes from our famed lack of legendary magic knives made of adamantium thrown by real life folk heroes at living, flying napalm tanks.

Another important lesson regarding guns in D&D: D&D isn't Earth with some magic sloppily thrown on, it's a fantasy world with different metaphysics and physical elements. There are literal monsters just straight up made of the classical Greek elements or that are directly immune to piercing damage such as one might see from a device that throws fancy rocks real fast. There's no reason for any of the reasons firearms surpassed analog weapons to be the case in D&D land.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Guns discussions that want balance? Seems like a misplaced expectation

Literally one of the most famous idiomatic phrases in America "You don't bring a knife (or in this case sword, axe, glaive-guisarme, whatever) to a gun fight"

It took about 300 years for the gun to obsolete melee weapons, and another 150 years for military tactics to catch up to that fact.

Early guns functionally were encounter powers as the OP suggests, that would take a minute or more to load and which were extremely unreliable except in perfect weather conditions. As late as the early 18th century trained longbowmen were competitive with musketeers, and primary advantage of the firearm was just how easy it was to muster conscripts with guns compared to conscripted longbowmen in any useful numbers.

Unlike modern smokeless powder, true gunpowder is not a high explosive and as such musket balls had relatively low velocity and had to rely primarily on mass for killing power. Killing a large game animal with a black powder musket wasn't easy, and absolutely massive guns that were practically handheld cannons were required to do it, and even then not reliably and even then only late in the development of blackpowder weapons. Literally, you could hit a charging elephant with a 4 bore and just stun it - quarter pound slug bouncing off its brain case if you didn't place your shot well or wait until it was close enough. If you were trying to kill a rhino or a hippo or a bear, you were probably as well off with a spear as a musket provided you had the proper training.

It's perfectly possible in a 15th or 16th or even 17th century inspired game to balance firearms with older weapons and still have verisimilitude. The trouble is that this balance is an awkward one for D&D because the balancing factor remains that firearms are a lot easier to be effective with if you don't have a ton of military training than a sword, spear, glaive-guisarme or whatever. The balancing point in D&D terms is level. Below X level you are better off with a firearm, and above X level you are better off primarily focusing on something else (possibly with a brace of single shot pistols as supplemental weapons). Encounter powers aren't fully realistic but they do capture the spirit of an early blackpowder weapon. And that creates a problem, because NPCs get more out of gaining access to a firearm encounter power than PCs do given their array of powerful options already. Like who really gets more advantage out of wheellock musket or (shudder) a 4 bore elephant gun - a typical adventuring PC or a 1st level NPC. Sure, a PC would like to have a one-shot weapon doing say 1d10+2 damage or (shudder) 9d6 damage, but would they like it if hobgoblins had 20 such weapons? It's a problem because low level D&D becomes more lethal and stays lethal for a longer period. Numbers of combatants start to matter more than the skill of combatants.

Move up to 19th century or 20th century firearms, and its an entirely different game and yeah your magic sword starts to feel a bit puny brought to a gunfight. Now your wizard is outclassed at low levels by every well-armed thing and a platoon of smart low-level characters can make life just hell for high level characters. Napoleonic hobgoblins wheeling out anti-personnel artillery introduce though the real problem with advanced technology in a heroic setting - the gun isn't the limit of destructive power.
 
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Other problem is the risk of reverse engineering. If you can craft one, your enemy can learn it also. And it is not only to know how it works, but to can create the right steel.

We are in 2024, and this means lots of players with enough experience in shooter videogames, and someones playing survival (horror) where the number of bullets is limited. And we have forgotten the space and weight of ammo.

Haven't you thought about campaigns where PCs are from a lower-level civilitation, defending their lands against invaders with firearms?

What if a spellcaster creates a teletransport effect against the bullets, and these go to a different direction, or become incorporeal for a little seconds? or maybe the machines are too easy to be sabotage by magic if these have got little pieces.

If XVII century firearms are allowed, then somebody will ask XIX century guns for a steampunk setting.

Even the videogame Baldurs Gate 3 can show how the simple explosive barrel can cause a lot of destruction.

And this could become more complicated if there is a redesign of the warmage class to become the magitek gunslinger.
 

I don't think early firearms are huge deal, they can just be another normal weapon. Granted, the design space is a bit crowded, and it is hard to differentiate them from crossbows. Even slower leading, but a bit more damage? Dunno, I am not a huge fan how loading property works in the first place. And yeah, something like full action to load would lead the PCs carrying a bunch of guns. With pistols this seems appropriate, but with muskets it would be weird, and I would like to discourage that.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Some of these objections seem a bit overstated to me.

Of course the monsters can have guns. If you design the guns properly, this isn't an issue.

For example, using my rules, why would the players care if the Drow Elite Warrior (MM-128) is shooting them with a flintlock pistol for 7 DMG (2d6 no mod) vs a hand crossbow for 7.5 DMG (1d6+4)? The players are actually better off against the flintlock, even assuming the DM allows the Drow to apply their poison to the shot (half point less damage on average).

If using the OP's rules, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Monsters can have encounter powers too. Might make encounters more dangerous in the opening round, but that's part of the design choice to have guns work as encounter powers.

As for guns as magical items, sure. Bows can be magical items too, and could have basically any enchantment a gun could have. As long as you're not designing guns to be 150% superior in every way to other ranged weapons, this isn't likely to be an issue IMO.

Regarding players wanting "modern" firearms, I actually allow this, but they're cutting-edge technology that are the domain of mad-scientist types. Basically, unless your class is either Craftsman or Gunslinger, you need to spend a feat to be able to use revolvers and the like. The "modern" firearms don't really do more damage than their simpler counterparts, but do have advantages like ammo capacity. Even if some goblins robbed an inventor carrying a few of these, they'd be fairly pitiful with them as they wouldn't gain their proficiency bonus to hit.

If a player wants their character to have an assault rifle or bazooka, they can play the inventor class and if they can figure out a way to design those within the rules, they can have them. Otherwise, no dice. I've had players that wanted their PC to have the unfettered powers of a god. Sometimes it's the DM's responsibility to say no, for the good of the campaign (that player did gain some great abilities, but I told him that if he wanted full access he needed to ascend, which would make his character an NPC).

No one IMC has the capability of fielding armies with "modern" firearms at this time, nor will it happen within the span of my campaign; there simply aren't sufficient inventors who understand their production nor is there a means for mass production. An army with flintlocks would be possible, and might give that army an edge in some circumstances, but isn't really more powerful than equivalent longbowmen (aside from being generally easier to field).

Just my 2 cents.
 

GrimCo

Adventurer
It's been long time since i played it, but 7th sea had fairly decent amount of guns. Brute squad with knives was easy encounter for experienced character, but brute squad with guns was decently hard.

I liked 3.x version where they didn't do more damage, but they targeted Touch AC making them good against opponents with lots of armor and they did have x4 crit modifier. In play, guns were usually one and done, as in, one shot and then switch to melee. Yes, someone would occasionally carry couple of pistols for more shots, I played in one PF1 campaign where guns were more prevalent. Only character that used them throughout combat was Gunslinger. Musket was 1d12, 40feet range, exotic weapon and cost 1500 gp. Basic pistol is 1d8, 20 feet range and costs 1000 gp. Your basic Wand of magic missile is 750gp, auto hit 1d4+1, 50 charges, 110 ft range, ignores all but total cover.
 

Horwath

Legend
problem is that guns need to feel like guns and still be playable and somewhat balanced.

I also hate that reloading crossbows is so fast in 5E

so guns and crossbows all need to be simple weapons with loading time of 1 Action(1 Bonus action with some feat/fighting style)

then balance the range/damage around that.
2d6 or 2d8 for 2Handed firearm/crossbow with range shorter that bows sounds nice, 40/120ft
 

problem is that guns need to feel like guns and still be playable and somewhat balanced.

I also hate that reloading crossbows is so fast in 5E

so guns and crossbows all need to be simple weapons with loading time of 1 Action(1 Bonus action with some feat/fighting style)

then balance the range/damage around that.
2d6 or 2d8 for 2Handed firearm/crossbow with range shorter that bows sounds nice, 40/120ft
Issue with that is that they become useless to high level fighters. Though maybe that makes certain amount of thematic sense. Crossbows and guns are the "easy" weapons after all, whilst the bow takes time to master.
 

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