Guns? (primarily Iron kingdoms)

[redwing00]

I've looked into the IK world and have purchased Lock and Load. The basic concept is great, and the detailed descriptions are wonderful, not to mention the marvellous artwork. However, I have one question concerning the core concept: guns.

In the real world, along with the discovery of guns, the entire world evolved. With guns, armor became useless. Melee became a thing of the past. How do they explain the coexistance of each of these? Why are melee (swords, etc) and armor still used, wouldn't they fade out with the discovery of this new technology? I know that bullets still only do a die of damage, and don't kill on contact like in the real world, and that in D&D armor only counts as avoiding damage entirely, so do they say that armor actually stops bullets?

 

[painandgreed]

As somebody will probably soon state, the invention of guns did not end armor and melee overnight. Armor did still stop bullets and even was tested for such. the main reason guns replaced swords and armor was economics. It became cheaper and quicker to train gunners than longbowman, crossbowman, or foot soldiers. Event then there was much melee comat. Plenty of swordfights for the three musketeers. Inaccuracy, smoke, and long reloading times meant that guns were used for the opening salvo and then the troops advanced under the cover of smoke from the guns and engaged in melee with bayonet. If the economics meant that it was not cheaper to use guns for the common soldier, then they would not replace other melee weapons very quickly at all. It's been a long time since I've looked at IK but IIRC reloads cost a pretty penny and would explain why they exist along with your normal melee weapons.

 

[kolikeos]

although i never had guns in my game, i thought about what would happen if there were.
obviously, magic armor should block any physical attacks as normal, including bullets.
guns are much like crossbows except that they have a longer range and are easier to reload. a crossbow bolt fired at a full plate would probably go right through, just like a bullet from a gun. guns can also have a much faster shooting rate, so you can probably attack maybe 5 times, with a -4 on the attack roll, instead of just once.

 

[Khairn]

In the real world, along with the discovery of guns, the entire world evolved. With guns, armor became useless. Melee became a thing of the past. How do they explain the coexistance of each of these? Why are melee (swords, etc) and armor still used, wouldn't they fade out with the discovery of this new technology? I know that bullets still only do a die of damage, and don't kill on contact like in the real world, and that in D&D armor only counts as avoiding damage entirely, so do they say that armor actually stops bullets?

First things first, guns did not bring about the end of armor. Cost, and economics had more of an impact than guns did. But that is really a discussion for a historical thread rather than one on gaming.

In answer to a few of your questions regarding IK, here are my thoughts...

-IMHO the key to understanding IK is knowing that the designers wanted a game that enabled players to use both melee wepons and guns in a balance. They were not looking for a realistic approach to guns. If you are looking for a game that has a "realistic" approach to guns then you might want to look elsewhere for IK will not satisfy that particular itch.
-thankfully they also did not include rules to represent the horrendous backfires that killed many in the early days of firearms
-another "control" against the potentially overwhelming deadliness of guns that the designers used is that there is no gunpowder in IK. Alchemists are required to create a blasting powder in a ratio that is unique for each weapon. A mix that is quite expensive to use.
-as for the culture, the IK nations have been evolving and changing over the past few centuries since the withdrawl of the Orgoth. Many of the arcane/technologies elements of the setting are new, and society's reaction to them is still in its early stages. The IK World Guide gives a much better look into the cultures than L&L.
-there are classes that can will kill low and mid level targets with just 1 well placed bullet. But since that requires both training and skill, its not skills that the average soldier would have.
-some armor contains DR that is effective only against certain damage, such as those from bullets.

Hope that helps in a small way.

 

[kolikeos]

am i to understand that you are not talking about modern day firearms?
i don't really know anything about IK so i though that was the case...

 

[tetsujin28]

As somebody will probably soon state, the invention of guns did not end armor and melee overnight. Armor did still stop bullets and even was tested for such.

Exactly. It took a few hundred years. Also, guns in IK are exotic weapons, unlike IRL where they're simple. That in and of itself is going to slow down everyone using them. Add in the higher rate of fire of the bow (martial) and crossbow (simple), and it's going to take quite a while for the gun to reign supreme.

And as Devyn noted, gunpowder in IK is an arcane substance.

 

[tetsujin28]

am i to understand that you are not talking about modern day firearms?

Correct. They're more like flintlocks and wheelocks.

 

[painandgreed]

Exactly. It took a few hundred years. Also, guns in IK are exotic weapons, unlike IRL where they're simple. That in and of itself is going to slow down everyone using them. Add in the higher rate of fire of the bow (martial) and crossbow (simple), and it's going to take qutie a while for the gun to reign supreme.

And as Devyn noted, gunpowder in IK is an arcane substance.

So, what is the advantage of firearms in IK over bows or crossbows? Why would a person take one as an exotic feat?

 

[D'karr]

So, what is the advantage of firearms in IK over bows or crossbows? Why would a person take one as an exotic feat?

Coolness factor and roleplaying.

 

[VirgilCaine]

In the real world, along with the discovery of guns, the entire world evolved. With guns, armor became useless. Melee became a thing of the past. How do they explain the coexistance of each of these? Why are melee (swords, etc) and armor still used, wouldn't they fade out with the discovery of this new technology? I know that bullets still only do a die of damage, and don't kill on contact like in the real world, and that in D&D armor only counts as avoiding damage entirely, so do they say that armor actually stops bullets?

Until revolvers came along in 1840, the sword (well, the Arkansas Toothpick, really) was the best weapon for self-defense. (Well, an empty cut-down double-barreled musket butt to the forehead did pretty well too...)

IIRC, Even up until the late 19th century, the British (their other troops armed with machine guns and bolt-action rifles) used cavalry armed with lances.

As others said, guns being Exotic weapons and the "gunpowder" being an arcane substance would slow down the spread of firearms as weapons down considerably.