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GURPS vs. Harp

feydras

First Post
Anyone played both and can give a decent comparison? After years of house ruling D&D or adding in variant rules to the system i have recently begun to explore GURPS and am very excited with so many of the differences.

Some of my favorites...
Skill based magic system, not fire and forget!
Magic causes fatigue
Armor as damage reduction
Weapon ease of usage dependent on strength
Ease of racial templates compared to trying to sandwich a race into an EL category
Skill based system as opposed to levels
No assumed level of magic items necessary to meet CR of monsters

Some things that concern me about GURPS...
Combat looks like it might be slower
Automatic failure on a skill check (3d6) role of 17 or 18
May be too generic to best reflect the flavor of D&D style fantasy

I have yet to actually play GURPS so we'll have to see how it goes.

I have never played or checked out Harp yet and am interested in what it does better than D&D/d20 and GURPS.

- feydras
 

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skinnydwarf

Explorer
feydras said:
Anyone played both and can give a decent comparison? After years of house ruling D&D or adding in variant rules to the system i have recently begun to explore GURPS and am very excited with so many of the differences.

<SNIP>
I have yet to actually play GURPS so we'll have to see how it goes.

I have never played or checked out Harp yet and am interested in what it does better than D&D/d20 and GURPS.

- feydras

There are other good fantasy RPGs out there other than HARP and GURPS. (I don't have HARP myself, but I've heard interesting things about it. I do have GURPS, and like it for sci-fi and modern stuff). Burning Wheel (an indie RPG) is way cool, and I've always been a fan of Earthdawn. (The second edition is still in print, as far as I recall, and you can find the old stuff on ebay). Man, I miss FASA. They made the coolest games- Earthdawn, Shadowrun, and let us not forget Battletech. But I guess those games are still around in one form or another...
 

Aust Diamondew

First Post
I've played GURPS quite a bit for numerous settings. Theres nothing it can do that d20 can't do. So it really comes down to a preference of system (that and GURPS is clunkier IMO)
 


Rasyr

Banned
Banned
Feydras - As Cthulhu's Librarian says, check out the free download of HARP Lite. The pdf is about 98 pages long (~5MB) and contains fewer options that the full rulebook, but still has all you need to play and to get the feel of it.

HARP was designed to be very flexible.

Ok, boss is hollering for me now, so I have to get back to work... Will check in on this thread in a little while....

:D
 

RFisher

Explorer
Skill based magic system, not fire and forget!
Magic causes fatigue


The one thing that really bugged me about magic in GURPS was the DX-based "throw" skill check needed to hit with lightning bolt & similar spells.

GURPS Magic (at least the 3/e one) had lots of cool options I liked to use. It also had some alternative systems that can be good for some campaigns. I liked the Alchemy system.

GURPS Voodoo, Spirits, & Cabal had some interesting looking alternative magic systems, but I never got around to buying them.

I guess this is standard in 4/e, but if you're still playing 3/e, it's a good idea to base hits off ST & fatigue off HT. Besides the other benefits, it keeps all the wizards from being body builders.

Armor as damage reduction

It doesn't really matter where in the process armor gets figured in. What matters is, given all the factors, how much damage potential character A has against character B.

That said, GURPS has one of the best implementations of applying armor to the damage roll.

(Personally, I still prefer something like Rolemaster Arms Law in which "to hit" & damage are determined by a single roll. But I'm crazy.)

Weapon ease of usage dependent on strength

I liked the way they separated weapon skill from weapon. (You had the stats for using a staff with your sword style (with your sword skill) v. using it in normal staff style (with your staff skill).)

Ease of racial templates compared to trying to sandwich a race into an EL category

In 3/e, at least, the "race" books gave different costs for advantages if they were part of your race package than what the cost would be if it were just a normal advantage. I found that problematic, so I ruled that if a racial advantage was basically the same as a normal advantage, it cost the normal cost.

Possibly my favorite GURPS campaign was the one in which the GM allowed everyone to create their own race.

Skill based system as opposed to levels

These days GURPS skills are too narrow for my taste. (Although some people get around this with bang skills: Sword! Science!)

I find a game like Lejendary Adventures preferable. It's skills are much broader than GURPS skills yet not as broad as classes.

GURPS has levels. It just calls them a "point total" & they're much smaller than D&D levels. (You typically start at 100th level.) :)

No assumed level of magic items necessary to meet CR of monsters

Yeah. (Although, I've never found the D&D assumption that PCs would have a certain amount of magic items to be a problem, even though I tend to be very stingy with magic items.)

On the other hand, I found it more difficult to determine how much of a challenge a monster would be than it was in AD&D.

Combat looks like it might be slower

This is a big dilemma I had when thinking about running GURPS again. The advanced combat system with all (or, at least, most of) the options is very good & ends up creating important trade-offs between the different equipment & tactical options.

But, it's also very complex & slow to play. You can scale it back to something that plays fast, but then certain equipment & tactics suffer. (e.g. A two-handed sword almost needs all the options in play to be practical.)

Automatic failure on a skill check (3d6) role of 17 or 18

Yeah. Although, to me, the crit rules are even more annoying.

In the last GURPS campaign I ran, I switched to an open-ended d20 roll with no automatic failure & crits being determined by how much you made or missed the roll by. It seemed to work pretty well.

When I was considering trying GURPS again I was thinking of using something along the lines of D&D3e's crit threat/confirmation roll for failure with high skill levels & crits. (A mechanic that GURPS already used for malfunctions when using some weapons.)

May be too generic to best reflect the flavor of D&D style fantasy

Check out Caverns and Creatures. It's a sort of intro to GURPS for D&D players.

I think GURPS has a very different feel than D&D. (But then, when I was playing it, I wanted a different feel than AD&D.) It feels closer to real life to me than D&D does.

Also, check out UMana.
 

RFisher

Explorer
Oh, & the one thing I really like about GURPS: When I have a cool idea for a world I can usually get 90% of the way there by choosing from options GURPS already has instead of having to create lots of house rules to get the system to fit the world. At least, it's been my experience that this is easier with GURPS than with other games.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
As a caveat, know that I know nothing about GURPS, but I can speak to HARP a bit.

I really like it. I was a d20/D&D die-hard for many, many years, and I finally decided that I was just tired of trying to bandaid the entire thing to get it to do what I wanted. What I specifically didn't like about it was the overall power level at the high levels. I wanted something that didn't scale quite so rapidly upwards. I think HARP accomplishes that very well. I say think, because I've not actually played it. I'm going to run it at some game days coming up, so I'll learn more after those...

Some of HARP's strengths:
- skilled based magic. There are really only enough skill points available to pick a handful of spells and excel at those. This cuts out on uber wizards with tons of spells. It's simple.
- metamagic is worked into the system - you want a "meta-magic'd" spell, just expend more points when casting it. Simple.
- Professions (classes) can be tweaked just how you want them. The cool thing is things like BAB and hit points are skills in HARP. So, if you want to make a wizard, and don't give a darn about how well you hit with a staff, you can just neglect putting any ranks in that at all. That gives you more points for magic, for example. Or, if you want a meat-shield wizard, you can dump as many points as your friend the fighter into hit points, so you could essentially create a "d10 hit dice" wizard no sweat. It's all up to how you want to construct it.
- In HARP, how well you hit, has a direct correlation to the amount of damage you inflict. In d20, you could attack with a two-handed battle-axe, roll a 20, roll another 20 to confirm the critical, and then roll 1 damage.
- HARP's races are more balanced. In d20, dwarves get all kinds of uber abilities, and half-orcs get jack. You can also mix-and-match the races to get cross-breeds easily. Half-gnome/half-halfling? No sweat. The rules have got you covered.
- Sometimes the little things are the best. You can customize some of the skill categories for clerics, so you can make a "lying, thieving" priest if you want to. There aren't any class abilities tied to the profession. In d20, if you want a cleric, but don't want to bother with the turn undead ability, tough noogies; you get it anyway. Rogue and thief are two separate professions, which is nice.
- no alignment.

To be fair, I'll list some of the things I don't like about HARP (the list is much smaller!)
- The costs to calculate development points overly favor individuals with more attributes. So, to put it in d20 terms, let's say that the number of feats you got as a character were based on the total of all the attribute modifiers, so that if you had all 14s, you'd get 6 x 2 points to spend for feats. Obviously, someone with all 18s is going to have a LOT more points to spend. HARP works in this way. However, it can be mitigated in two very easy ways: Have the players build their characters using a point buy method. So, that everyone starts off with the same number of points to allocate to attributes, or just assign everyone a default number of development points to spend every level, and ignore the formula as given.
- To resolve damage, you have to look up your result on a table, based on your weapon type. So long as you have all the sheets handily available, it's not that big of an issue, but the damage results often include "stun", so after a round or so combat, it seems feasible that many of the individuals participating would simply be stunned. In my experience, being stunned is quite boring. I'll have more insight into this problem once I actually run it. But, on paper it seems kind of flawed to me. question to Rasyr - Would it be feasible to alter the combat mechanic so that damage = OB - DB?
- Not as many options. One thing I do like about d20 is all the numerous feats, and 3rd party products. Despite the fact that d20 has become hugely bloated with all this stuff (much of it awful to be sure), there is a lot of really good stuff out there that players can use in creating their characters. There's just not as much stuff out there for HARP. I guess this can be either a good or bad thing, depending on perspective.
- Not as many monsters, not as many spells; again a good or a bad thing.

I haven't delved into a lot of the details. There's a lot of rules on say, magic item creation, lots of stuff in the martial law expansion, or some of the variant spellcasting options from College of Magics that I haven't really perused yet. So, these observations are just the ones I can make from just the stuff that I have read thus far.
 

Numion

First Post
RFisher said:
Armor as damage reduction

It doesn't really matter where in the process armor gets figured in. What matters is, given all the factors, how much damage potential character A has against character B.

That said, GURPS has one of the best implementations of applying armor to the damage roll.

I remember trying the GURPS combat system with a friend, duelling with some characters (one made by us, and one from the book).

Character A empties a shotgun in the chainmailed Character B (from the book) at close range. Result: character B is unhurt.

We both broke down laughing :p

I had difficulties getting our group try the system afterwards, with stories of 'Bulletproof Knights' going around. I really would've liked to try the system.
 


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