Guys playing girls (chime in, ladies)

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Well, I guess I'm a bit of a latecomer, but...

What is the difference in difficulty between playing against gender compared to playing against race? IOW, why do you feel a male cannot portray a "realistic" female character but you probably have no problem with 21st century humans portraying pseudo-mideval 1,000 year living elves who are considered whelps in their 100th year of existence, just now striving out on their own? Shouldn't you run into just as many instances of "that's not how a real elf/dwarf/gnome would act?"

Absolutely. However, we have fewer (and certainly less ingrained) notions of how Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes are *supposed* to act. Our gender roles have been dictated to us since birth. Tweaking them is somewhat more jarring than a deviation from "elfishness."

Which is not to say I have a problem with people playing against gender (clarification: I have a problem wiht certain people playing across gender). But I understand why it can be unsettling to many.

But here is an interesting observation -- through many gaming groups, I have seen that women playing male characters are rarely noted, yet men playing women are often looked at askance. Now this may be due to players having seen too many men playing horrible female characters, or merely hearing about such playing in other people's games.

That might be part of the reason, but I tend to suspect that it's part of our culture's homophobia and inherent gender bias. I'm a pretty comfortably hetero male (despite theSpark's 8% certainty that I'm female ), but much of the population is not, and they tend to react badly to any stereotypically feminine behavior out of a man. Plus, the entire culture has a subtext of "It's better to be a man." A male roleplaying a female is implicitly taking on a social role that is weaker than his native one. This seems less palatable to people than girls who want to be boys. After all, our entire culture tells us it's better to be a boy. When a little girl plays basketball or plays with trucks, she's considered a tomboy, which is often "cute." Especially nowadays. Keira Knightley is building a nice career for herself out of exploiting this. Implication: it's OK for a girl to act like a boy. Heck, it's even "sexy" (and think about the implications of that for a moment). On the other hand, if a little boy plays with dolls or make-up, well, if dad doesn't step in quick, he probably has an uncle, grandfather, or family friend who will "correct" the situation quickly. Implication: it's not OK for a boy to act like a girl. This, of course, is changing (slowly) among the younger and more urban segments of the population, but the bias is still there.

The one statistic they quoted me was something like 48% to 52% or something in that vicinity, which I'm fairly certain isn't a statistically significant margin of difference between the two...

That depends entirely on how many people have taken the test, of course. But I tend to agree that it's hard to say anything definitive with numbers like that, though. Even if individual questions acheive significance through sheer overwhelming numbers, taken as a collection, the whole thing is pretty iffy.

Of course, I suspect that's the point.

And just to extend to full-fledged hijackitude...

However, if you are going to do it, pick up some books with strong female characters. I really enjoy some of the female insight in the Wheel of Time books...

Really? Every woman I know who read those books *hates* his portrayal of women with a passion. Only 1 of 5 has kept reading past book 4, and that only because she's as obsessive about stories as I am. If you start, you MUST see it through to the end. Unfortunately, since I was the one who (inadvertantly) turned her on to the books, she takes her irritation with the author out on me. I thought I was going to be beaten to death with a hardcover book when she got to the part where ...

Spoiler

all Rand's "loves" decide they can comfortably share him

.

Actually, the notion that Jordan is in any way correct about the way the female psyche works is giving me the heebie-jeebies.

I always felt too that he is trying to slowly show how divisiveness between the sexes is at the heart of the problem in fighting the Shadow

Actually, I'd say he's trying fairly effectively to beat you over the head with it in a way as hamhanded as possible.

But that's not an excuse for all but perhaps 2 of the women to have intensely combative relationships with all men, and one of the non-combative ones (Min) is one of the more striking examples of unrealistic behavior in the book. Though on that point I guess YMMV and all that.

 

[Corinth]

I only meant that the default setting represented by the Core Rules is a far more equal society than our own medieval period and it seems largely implicit that it has been that way for a long period of time. I base this assumption on several facts supported by the Core Rules:

Here's mine: that stuff is all marketing, put there specifiically to maximize the game's appeal and thus draw in the broadest possible audience, specifically for the reason that--in actual play--what the world is like is determined by the DM. By going with a marketing-based illusion, WotC washes its hands of the matter & increases its postive image amongst the populace. What you see in the Core Rules aren't facts; they're just pleasant images.

 

[RFisher]

Here's to openness.

Kemrain, thank you for your perspective.

It makes me think. I've been shocked by how my daughter (almost 2) seemed to act so "girly" so young in certain ways. It seemed like it had to be innate. I remember my wife making similar comments about my son when he was younger.

Yet, could it be that she's picked up unconscious clues from us? Have we given her "girly" behavior slightly different reactions than any "boyish" behavior? Probably.

Not that it really matters, but it is interesting to think about.

Anyway, this entire discussion also applies to DMs roleplaying NPCs of the oppossite sex. Even if you never play a PC of the opposite sex, those of us who serve some time behind the screen eventually face having to roleplay the other sex.

 

[der_kluge]

I think that most of Gender is learned, and thus part of the character's background. We learn what both genders are expected to be like when we're very young, and it's hard to break these mental molds and learn to see things differently. I also don't think most people often stop and think "what does it mean to be male?" or "what does it mean to be female?" except under exceptionally introspective circomstances (though some people seem to ask once and never stop thinking about it.) We start learning our Gender Rolls as soon as we're out of the womb (male and female infants are treated remarcably different), and society pushes us along it's path until we die. Straying from this path is both easy and hard, and can carry grave social consequences, though people do it all the time, and some groups are more tolerant than others.

All right, I'll bite - I'll tell you that you're wrong.

Society attempts to tell us that there are no differences between males and females. There have been numerous studies in recent years that show that babies will choose gender-appropriate toys when given a choice of several toys. My own daughter can be used as an example - she's the only girl in our whole block, and the daycare, who is our neighbor, has two boys of her own. Our daughter has absolutely no interest in cars or trucks or trains, or any other boy toys. She does, however, like dolls and pink things, even though we have never encouraged her to favor these toys over others. Most of the toys we have purchased for her, especially the ones from her infancy, are all gender-neutral. Most baby toys are really gender neutral anyway. Take a walk to the toy aisle and look at 3-month old baby toys and distinguish them between "boy" or "girl" toys. You can't do it, because they don't subdivide them out that way. Do any internet research, or library research on human development, and you'll find that boys and girls develop differently, and have different interests at different stages.

Obviously, my own child is not proof of this, but there are numerous studies.

Males and females are biologically hardwired to be different. Most of this research isn't well-publicized because it's not politically correct.

From John Stossel's book _Give me a Break_:

"My favorite experiments were the ones done at the university of Rochester and York University. Rochester students were blindfolded and then walked through a maze of tunnels that run underneath the campus. Then they were asked how to get to a particular college building. The men said things like "Go through the next doors, take a left and a right, then a left." Women said things like "How would I know?"
Men's brains are somehow better at sensing where they are. Women, on the other hand, tend to have a better memory for detail. York University students were asked to wait two minutes in a cluttered room while an experimenter got something ready. That request was a trick. The real purpose of the test was to see what people remembered. After the students left the cluttered room, the experimenter asked what was in the room.
Women gave stunningly detailed answers, like "On the right-hand side of the desk, right here, was a briefcase with your initials at the top. Then there was a clock with an 'I am 40' button on it. In the middle there were York University envelopes. There was a thing of Clearasil and a Bazooka Joe comic..." And so on. Men said things like "What was in there? I dunno... some stuff." "

I have seen other research on TV. Next time you're with a group of mixed gender friends, have them pull out a blank sheet of paper, and tell them "from memory, draw as detailed a picture as you possibly can, of a bicycle." Men will draw amazingly detailed bicycles, and will show the gears, and the wheels, and the cables, and everything else that's on a bicycle. Some of the pictures you get back from women might not even look like bicycles.

Women also have a very keen sense of smell, and can multi-task with far superiority to men. Men have a better sense of direction.

My wife and I are testaments to the above. I can't smell worth a crap. My wife will be like, "it's time to clean out the litter box again." "How do you know?" "I can smell it" will be the response - our litter box is in the basement, and we never go down there. I can't smell it, but my wife sure can. There have been studies that pit men against women in performing mundane tasks like boiling water and making photocopies. Women will outscore men almost every time because they multi-task far better. When driving, my wife doesn't know north from south; east from west. Doesn't have a clue. She can't read a map to save our lives. Our recent trip to Minneapolis proved that. "where are we honey?" "Somewhere around here, I think", was the general response. "Does this intersect with I-35, or should I turn around?" "I have no idea". I forget the number of times I had to turn around because she couldn't keep track of where we were.

So, given all that - do you *still* believe that men and women are born the same, and somehow "learn" their sexual differences?

Some people on here are going to flame me for these comments, but they are based on scientific fact - period.

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

Some people on here are going to flame me for these comments, but they are based on scientific fact - period.

To be honest, that's frustrating to me.. When people make claims like that they often mean that they are going to assume that whomever is disagreeing with them is not using scientific fact, or is reasoning on emotion.
It's also dishonest-

Your entire last paragraph is about your wife fitting your ideas of feminity.. That is not scientific observation, that is anecdotal.
Do be scientific (your word), you need to use the empirical method.
Looking at a large number of people, as in the studies you mentioned, is valid. Your family is, and I mean this with no disrespect, irrelevant to this discussion entirely.

I don't think anyone, Kemrain included, would argue that there are no differences between men any women. There are observable differences, which can be seen over a population.

Threaded response follows-

Society attempts to tell us that there are no differences between males and females.

Well.. No. 'Society' doesn't say anything. Some people within a society might say things.
It may seem like a trivial argument, but it makes a difference. You're trying to make an argument that this the overwhelming belief of a large populace, which I would disagree with. Note the failure to pass of the Equal Rights Amendment.

There have been numerous studies in recent years that show that babies will choose gender-appropriate toys when given a choice of several toys.

Two points- One, I would appreciate if you could name your source. By leaving it unnamed, and unreferenced, you are presenting an argument which is hidden. I'm sure it's unintentional, but it would be difficult to discuss a unnamed study.

My own daughter can be used as an example -

No, she can't. Read what I said earlier about anecdotes.
But I understand your argument. Unfortunately, what I don't think you are looking at is two-fold; I feel you are ignoring the influence of society and culture on what the children will use. As you have not quoted a specific study, I can't comment on it directly, but I would ask that you consider the question of which toy a child is likely to use, one she has been raised with, or an unfamiliar one?

Admittedly unscientific, but again, it's hard to discuss things in generalities.

Do any internet research, or library research on human development, and you'll find that boys and girls develop differently, and have different interests at different stages.

Again, I agree. And I think Kemrain does as well. Again, as she mentioned, there are biological differences, and adaptations which encourage this.
I myself would quote an unnamed study; Forgive me, Google is failing me, but given that the study seems to support the body of your argument, I can't see while you would object.

It is clear that women tend to live longer than men on average. It is argues and reasoned that one of the reasons is that grandmothers are more important evolutionarily, than grandfathers are.
There are differences, and I wouldn't disagree with them; I'm not trying to defend Kemrain, but I would argue she would as well. In her post, she acknowledges that there are differences, but that they are minor. I would point out that the difference between a male human and a female human is a lot less than a male orc and a male elf!

Males and females are biologically hardwired to be different. Most of this research isn't well-publicized because it's not politically correct.
So, given all that - do you *still* believe that men and women are born the same, and somehow "learn" their sexual differences?

This is the same straw-man argument you've been using the whole time..
No one has argued that there is no difference between the two, they've argued that there is little inherent difference between the mental states of the two.
Inherent difference, being the word I'd like to emphasize, as it would be easy to skip over.
There is a difference between men and women. If there wasn't, no one would find difficulty in role-playing them, and this topic would not be useful or interesting.
What she is saying is that, and I'll quote

"Everyone is unique, and as long as you make your character a Real Person, their Sex and Gender don't matter at all."

And again, I'll agree. Look at the difference in culture between people of different parts of the world; there are some similarities, and many differences. It's not entirely unlikely that whatever fantasy world you are in may have different ideas of feminity.

Just thoughts.
-Colin

 

[trowizilla]

die_kluge, let me respond to your "my daughter prefers girl toys" arguement with this: young children assert their own identity, including gender identity, through toy choices. Here is an anecdote of my own: my very-much younger brother used to play dress-up a lot, and included girl's clothing, pink frilly stuff, and a tiara in his play. He also loved cabbage-patch dolls, etc. However, at about the time he had a definite idea that boys and girls were different, and that he was a boy, he switched to trains, trucks, and giant robots. Just as a toddler who wants to assert his/her "niceness" will go overboard in hugging and kissing, one who wants to make a point of his/her gender will often go to extremes, with pink frills for girls and trucks for boys. They will also reject the symbols of the opposite gender; for example, my brother made up his mind that blue was a "girl color," and refused to wear or own blue things for a few years. While your anecdote suggests that gender differences are innate, mine suggests that children respond to societal imperatives in order to demonstrate their own gender.
As for your never pushing gender-specific toys on your daughter, I assume she watches television. TV often displays exaggerated stereotypes, especially on children's shows such as Pokemon, Kim Possible, etc. While TV displays a wider range of gender stereotypes now, as opposed to, say, 50 years ago, women are often still shown as "girly girls" who are mainly interested in fashion and frills.

As for your wife: I'm definitely female, and I can read a map, give directions, draw a diagram, etc. I also can't multitask very well, and my sense of smell is approximately that of a rock. So your wife is different; I'm glad she has been blessed with her talents, and I'm thankful for my own. However, just because you know people who fit stereotypes doesn't mean that the stereotypes are correct.

Just my 2cp.

 

[der_kluge]

e1ven, obviously men and women are different. Yes, we all know that. Kemrain asserted that this was due to learned behavior. I was pointing out that he was wrong. My observations of my wife and my daughter are completely irrelevant from a scientific standpoint. They are just that, observations. And I did mention scientific studies in my post - York and Rochester University studies. My wife is the social worker. I'll ask her for other studies that she knows of when she's awake.

This particular field of study is very new, and still quite controversial in many ways.

Pretty much the only link you need:
http://theabsolute.net/misogyny/sdifref.html

Here's a college term paper that sumarizes a lot of it:
http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPapers/Miscellaneous/Men_Verse_Women_.shtml

Look up Dr. Laura Allen of UCLA or June Reinisch for further info. There are several books on the market, which is why there is scarce data online.

Finally, the bicycle thing I mentioned: http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/54/article18.html

On smell:
I can find numerous references to "women being able to smell better than men" all over the place, but they just reference "research". I'll keep looking on this one. It's possible that it could be an urban legend.


Trowizilla - my daughter doesn't ever watch TV. She never watches it at our house, and unless she's watching it every day at the neighbors, she never does. It's just something she's ever been interested in.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Some people on here are going to flame me for these comments, but they are based on scientific fact - period.

Actually, they're not. I'm a neurobiologist. 3/4 of the people I work with are psychologists. I have a more than adequate knowledge of the current literature, and let me tell you... You're psych-fu is weak, my friend.

Males and females are biologically hardwired to be different. Most of this research isn't well-publicized because it's not politically correct.

The gender-differences data is publicised ALL OVER THE PLACE. It's an incredibly active field. Some differences exist, primarily as the result of early exposure to different levels of hormones. Many differences do not.

As for the specific studies (blindfolded men and women playing the memory game) you cited, I'm familiar with them. For the record, they reported statistical correlations, not anything resembling the anecdotes you supplied, which were extreme outliers (but probably the ones noted in the popular press). Statistically speaking, men performed better at mapping their location while blindfolded. Statistically speaking, women remembered the contents of a room better. But we're talking about the kind of numbers where 55% of men end up performing above the mean on one task and 58% of women end up performing above the mean on another task, not "all women are worse at spatial relationships." There are NO situations like that.

 

[der_kluge]

The John Stossel story on gender differences:
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s686728.htm

Also:
http://dubinserver.colorado.edu/prj/cerf02/index.html
(includes some information on the sense of smell)
The last page has references.

Do I believe that differences between men and women are completely biological? Even if I did, I could never prove it, nor could anyone, since we don't live in a vacuum. So the question is simply rhetorical.

And do I believe that *all* women smell better than *all* men, or that *all* men read maps better than *all* women? Of course not, but the evidence that I have seen, and the evidence that I have presented would indicate that *in general* this is true.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

This particular field of study is very new, and still quite controversial in many ways.

Actually, it's older than dirt. Lately they've been going after it with new tools, but the questions are perennial.

Pretty much the only link you need:
http://theabsolute.net/misogyny/sdifref.html

Dude. That entire list has only one source from the primary literature, and it's the notably controversial Shaywitz paper. I know few credible scientists who would base an argument on that one.

And the 2500 word term paper by "Andrea" has some serious holes. These aren't necessarily well-graded term papers, are they?