GWM without advantage

[Warpiglet]

So a question just came to mind as I began plans to play a cleric.

specifically I have been debating a war cleric and an arcana cleric. Going against the advice of some, I planned to take GWM at some point. With the war cleric, channel divinity for. +10 seems a natural fit. Sure, it's limited to a time or two per day initially, but it is a very likely hit even with -5 +10.

I recall a discussion some time ago where this feat was discouraged for a war cleric....

the subtext was there are too few attacks to bother...and of course a fighter can get advantage or bless and make better use of it. However, if I play war cleric I might occasionally cast bless for a fighter but see myself as leaning away from concentration spells and focusing on other things (I despise being relegated to support but don't mind turning, healing or banishing along with teethkicking).

in this context, how great is GWM for a fighter? If we have a fighter how potent is GWM without advantage prior to three attacks?

it seems most of the white room analysis assumes someone will be blessing or helping the fighter. If they have their own agenda and the fighter goes it alone (I.e. No bless) is GWM really that great for him say compared to a war cleric?

just curious. It won't change my choice (I want to play a cleric who fights, period) but wondered if the assumption about GWM and which class should take it is predicated on advantage.

one side note...whether I take arcana or war cleric, I plan to use booming blade as I like the imagery and in game effect.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is it a battlemaster fighter that uses precision attack?

 

[TwoSix]

It isn't predicated on advantage, but it's still much better for a fighter than for a cleric. Especially if you're using Booming Blade. The value of GWM decreases as base damage per attack increases, and a cleric using Booming Blade has a large base damage. Assuming a d8 weapon and an 18 attack stat at 8th level, the cleric is doing 1d8 + 4 + (1d8 or 4, 1d8 is divine strike, and 4 is the cleric cantrip bonus), 1d8 booming blade + 1d8 booming blade proc (assuming 50% proc rate), so right about 22 average damage. You would need to have a hit rate over 80% before GWM would even being to break even.

 

[Warpiglet]

Well I don't know if battlemaster is the class selected necessarily. But then are we saying this is the only fighter that should take it? I guess I am wondering where people say the line is for value.

For me, it's horseshoes and hand grenades. I want the fun of an occasional intentional big hit with war cleric. I like to RP clerics and I like the satisfaction of melee (only play blade pact warlocks for example).

But just curious about the recommendation people make for GWM and different classes. I am also the person that takes single classed blade pact warlocks (even non hexblade!) in all but one case because for me, moderately armored is good enough (or mountain dwarf). But I realize a lot of people discourage this.

Just curious about "conventional wisdom" and selection of classes with GWM...

 

[TwoSix]

Well I don't know if battlemaster is the class selected necessarily. But then are we saying this is the only fighter that should take it? I guess I am wondering where people say the line is for value.

My personal take is that if you have at least two weapon attacks a round, and your base damage per attack isn't much higher than 15, it's probably worth it. Fighters, paladins, rangers, barbarians, and most gish subclasses should definitely be aiming for it, have another way to pump damage in its absence, or be playing more a tank/support role.

 

[Yunru]

It isn't predicated on advantage, but it's still much better for a fighter than for a cleric. Especially if you're using Booming Blade. The value of GWM decreases as base damage per attack increases, and a cleric using Booming Blade has a large base damage. Assuming a d8 weapon and an 18 attack stat at 8th level, the cleric is doing 1d8 + 4 + (1d8 or 4, 1d8 is divine strike, and 4 is the cleric cantrip bonus), 1d8 booming blade + 1d8 booming blade proc (assuming 50% proc rate), so right about 22 average damage. You would need to have a hit rate over 80% before GWM would even being to break even.

Or under 20%... I think. #Guesstimate

 

[FrogReaver]

GWM isn’t better than +2 str unless you have an accuracy boost. That boost can come from class abilities, precook or reckless attack for example, it can come from party support it can come from magic weapons etc. Extra attacks also help it tremendously

Clerics scale damage on a single attack. Once your damage is sufficiently high the penalty to accuracy hurts more than the bonus to damage helps.

As such nearly everything about a cleric makes using it not worthwhile. That said the +10 attack channel divinity isn’t terrible and using GWM and that and the wisdom bonus attack altogether makes a nice nova which is something clerics traditionally lack.

It’s not recommended because the DPR benefit is small but if your goal for the combo isn’t DPR but NOVA it may have a place even if not completely optimized otherwise.

 

[Yunru]

GWM isn’t better than +2 str unless you have an accuracy boost.

Or you've maxed out your Strength, but then a Cleric will probably want to invest into Wisdom instead.

 

[TwoSix]

Or under 20%... I think. #Guesstimate

True, but that's difficult to hit in baseline play. 20% is a +5 attack (standard 1st level attack) versus AC 22 (ancient dragon territory). If you're in a situation where you need a 17+ to hit, you should be aiding/grappling/doing anything else besides attacking.

 

[Dausuul]

Remember that -5/+10 is only one of the benefits of GWM. You also get a bonus-action attack when you kill an enemy; and the value of that benefit increases for PCs with one big attack instead of many little ones. (However, do consider whether you'll be casting a lot of bonus-action spells, since those will conflict.)

And -5/+10 is still useful! It's very effective against foes with low AC and lots of hit points, such as zombies.

It won't be OMGBROKEN, but that doesn't make it a bad choice.