Gygax on initiative

[Valiant]

To avoid thread jacking another thread in a response to Storm Raven, I'm starting a new thread here.

This is what Gygax had to say about his BTB understanding of how initiative is supposed to work in 1E (including spell use) posted a few years ago at DF.

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks Gary,

A few follow ups, if you don't mind:

Is this the proper interp. of roling init.

-DM vs. Player (player states intent, DM thinks his, and the two sides role)
DM roles 3 Player roles 6. The player goes first, starting actions on seg. 3, the DM goes second starting on seg. 6.

That is correct.

Quote:
-A spell caster does not loose their spell if hit before they cast within that round. (ex. a MU intends on casting MM but is hit on seg 2 before he can begin casting his spell on segment 3.)

A spell-caster struck and losing HPs thereby before completion of spell casting does indeed have the casting interrupted, the spell fails and is lost.
If the spell isn't begiun, then the hit does not affect his intent unless he wishes to alter it.

Quote:
-To loose a spell the MU would have already had to started casting (ex. MU starts casting Fire ball on seg. 1 but is hit on seg 2 before the spell goes off).

correct.

-A MU does not loose his dex. bonus to AC until after he begins casting, and regains his AC after his spell has been cast.
(ex. MU intends on casting web, but can't act until seg 3. From seg 1-2 he gets his AC bonus of -2 so his AC is 8. On seg 3 he must stop all positioning and begin casting eff. loosing his dex bonus. Thus from seg 3 to seg 5 his AC is a 10. The spell goes off on seg 5, and the MU gets his AC dex bonus back on seg 6. [/quote]
correct, and I generally allow a spell-caster to retain his dexterity bonus to AC even when he is casting.

Quote:
Well, thanks again Gary. As everyone knows, YouDaMan.

Welsome, and I am always happy to be of service to my fellows

Cheers,
Gary


So Storm Raven, basically a bit different then what ADDICT claims. According to Gygax:

1. You go on the role your oppenent makes (side A roles for side B visa versa)
2. Spells go off on the role made by the other guy + casting time.
3. During casting is the only time a spell caster loses dex bonus
4. No loss of spell if your hit before you start casting, only while your casting

I've read the rules regarding initiative and I don't see anything that contradicts Gygax's BTB understanding of initiative (and since he wrote the book I think we should give a little weight to what he says) though he might be wrong. A big factor that supports his claim is casting time in segments listed with each spell.

 

[TerraDave]

Do you work for WotC? Is this some kind of stealth advertising for 4th--or any other simpler--edition?

 

[Delta]

Over the years I've learned that what EGG used in play, what he published in a book, and what he writes about later may be very distinct things. It's kind of a fool's errand to try and pin down, because he was producing so fast back in the day.

I've also asked about 1E initiative on the Dragonsfoot boards, and he was considerate enough to reply directly. His conclusion was this (11/3/2002):

Ah, what's in a mechanic? If the group loves complex and time-consuming combat, then play it that way. If they are more focused on other aspects of the game, get it over by whatever quick and dirty method suits the lot.

 

[trollwad]

Does 'loose' mean 'lose'

 

[Storm Raven]

I've read the rules regarding initiative and I don't see anything that contradicts Gygax's BTB understanding of initiative (and since he wrote the book I think we should give a little weight to what he says) though he might be wrong. A big factor that supports his claim is casting time in segments listed with each spell.

The problem is that the version Gary described to you isn't in the 1e DMG. from things that are very specifically contradicted by the 1e DMG (e.g. casters retaining their Dexterity bonus to AC when casting spells, which is directly contradictory to the explicit text of the DMG), to things simply not being spelled out in the DMG that Gary states are how the rules are supposed to work (e.g. how casting times are supposed to affect initiative order, which isn't spelled out), to thing sthat are just vague (the "flip" of the initiative dice).

What you were told how mechanics are intended to work by a designer 20+ years after the books came out doesn't make the books retroactively make sense on their own. And rule books really should explain the rules in an intelligible way on their own (and shouldn't need 4+ pages of text to explain initiative).

 

[Gez]

Does 'loose' mean 'lose'

And 'role' means 'roll,' yes.