D&D 3E/3.5 Half-celestial PCs: How does a 3.5 differ from a 3.0?

[Azlan]

As a player character, how does a half-celestial differ in the 3.5 rules from the one given in 3.0? (BTW: All I have now is the 3.0 Player's Handbook.)

Formerly, I would not allow a half-celestial player character, as given in 3.0, because I thought it was too powerful and unbalancing, even for an ECL +3. Now that I have the 3.5 Player's Handbook and I'm incorporating that into my 3.0 campaign, I re-thinking the half-celestial as a player character.

So, what's the difference now, if any?

 

[andargor]

As a player character, how does a half-celestial differ in the 3.5 rules from the one given in 3.0? (BTW: All I have now is the 3.0 Player's Handbook.)

Formerly, I would not allow a half-celestial player character, as given in 3.0, because I thought it was too powerful and unbalancing, even for an ECL +3. Now that I have the 3.5 Player's Handbook and I'm incorporating that into my 3.0 campaign, I re-thinking the half-celestial as a player character.

So, what's the difference now, if any?

Look at the 3.5 SRD, in this file .

It doesn't really change much, only updates to 3.5. It pegs the LA at +4. However, the BoED gives it a variable LA depending on the hit dice of the race receiving the template. For base races, it is +2.

Andargor

 

[James McMurray]

I would definitely use the BoED's sliding scale if I were you, because the template is more powerful the higher your hit dice are, and thus it should be more costly as well.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As far as I can tell, the only difference is DR.
DR 5/magic for 1-11 HD, DR 10/magic for above. All elemental resistances are 10, due to the rule changes.

 

[mmu1]

As a player character, how does a half-celestial differ in the 3.5 rules from the one given in 3.0? (BTW: All I have now is the 3.0 Player's Handbook.)

Formerly, I would not allow a half-celestial player character, as given in 3.0, because I thought it was too powerful and unbalancing, even for an ECL +3. Now that I have the 3.5 Player's Handbook and I'm incorporating that into my 3.0 campaign, I re-thinking the half-celestial as a player character.

So, what's the difference now, if any?

I think they always get wings now, instead of having a 75% chance, some of their immunities were knocked down to 10 points of resistance, DR was changed to match the new rules... That's about it, IIRC.

By the way, the only really powerful celestial abilities are spell resistance (and the usefulness of that depends on whether you run a lot of by-the-book CR encounters, or throw fewer, more powerful enemies at the party whose caster level is high enough to bypass the SR anyway), and the high level spell-like abilities (Holy Aura, Mass Charm, Resurrection, Summon Monster IX).

The stat boosts do not make up for the 4 lost class levels: +4 STR and +4 CON vs 4 hit dice and +4 BAB are NOT an optimal trade-off when you're a fighting type, and let's not even get into playing one as a spellcaster with that sort of ECL. The DR is /magic, which means it's nearly useless by mid level, and flight is easily duplicated (although very nice at low levels).

 

[James McMurray]

The stat boosts do not make up for the 4 lost class levels: +4 STR and +4 CON vs 4 hit dice and +4 BAB are NOT an optimal trade-off when you're a fighting type, and let's not even get into playing one as a spellcaster with that sort of ECL. The DR is /magic, which means it's nearly useless by mid level, and flight is easily duplicated (although very nice at low levels).QUOTE]

Of course, they also get plusses to every other stat as well. +2 to hit and damage is a fair trade for +4 to hit (assuming you're a fighter and not a rogue or monk, in which case you lose less to hit).

I don't know what game you play in, but even at levels 10-12 DR of x/magic isn't to be taken lightly. Sure, some creatures you face will have magic weapons or their own DR, but others won't.

Flight may be easily duplicated, but permanent flight is not (at least not in 3.5). That alone is worth it. You may have lost a few levels, but if your melee foes can't fly, they can't reach you to hurt you.

The BoED sliding scale realizes that at low level a half-celestial isn't as useful a template, so it starts them off with a low LA. As you gain levels and abilities though, you also gain LA to make up for it.

 

[Azlan]

Thanks for you input, guys.

So, does anyone know why the "half-celestial" template for player characters is more powerful than the "celestial" one?

 

[mmu1]

The BoED sliding scale realizes that at low level a half-celestial isn't as useful a template, so it starts them off with a low LA. As you gain levels and abilities though, you also gain LA to make up for it.

That's actually me you're quoting, not (Psi)SeveredHead.

I'm not 100% sure the BoED scale actually works the way you think it does, since it only relates Level Adjustment to base hit dice, not character level.

If it does, then whoever wrote it needs to be directed to some kind of substance abuse program, because the idea that a 12th level character with the half-celestial template needs to have a level adjustment of +7 is completely absurd.

Half-Celestials are definitely worth a +4 ECL, but they're not game-breaking and they're not especially hard to DM considering all the other things going on at the level most half-celestial PCs will be created at.

 

[mmu1]

Thanks for you input, guys.

So, does anyone know why the "half-celestial" template for player characters is more powerful than the "celestial" one?

Because of confusing nomenclature.

A "celestial" something or other is simply any creature (from worm to dragon) that happens to be native to one of the higher, or celestial, planes of existence. If you made a "celestial" plane that was in every other way an exact copy of the Prime Material Plane, it'd end up populated with celestial humans, elves, dwarves, squirrells, etc.

Whereas Half-Celestials are the offspring of a specific group of outsiders - archons, devas, guardinals, planetars, solars, and all those other creatures listed under "Celestial" in the monster manual.

In other words, just because you're a badger that happens to have been born in the Garden of Eden, it doesn't mean you're a half-angel.

 

[andargor]

Thanks for you input, guys.

So, does anyone know why the "half-celestial" template for player characters is more powerful than the "celestial" one?

I can't remember where I saw the explanation, but it had to do with the fact that the child of the union between a Celestial and a mortal benefits from the strengths of both. In essence, the hybrid is stronger. (Hey, it's magic )

I'm not 100% sure the BoED scale actually works the way you think it does, since it only relates Level Adjustment to base hit dice, not character level.

It's based on the race hit dice. Base races, like human and elf, would mean +2 LA (flat).

Andargor