half-fiend and skillpoints

[Luigiana]

I am going to make a half-fiend.. but i dont understand the skill points it get.. It say it gets (8 + Int mod) * (HD + 3).. But it also says it doesn't get the HD from the class.. Meaning that it only get HDs for its race..
But what if it is a human? how many skill points does a level 4 fighter half-fiend (template on human) with int 18 = 4 mod then get?

 

[Rampant]

It doesn't change hit dice from a class.

A fighter would still get 2 + int mod for skills. The template would however increase the Int mod.

 

[Empirate]

The (8+Int) * (HD+3) calculation only refers to hit dice the templated creature gains from its race. For hit dice gained from class levels, Half-Fiends use the normal skillpoints/level for those class levels.

For example, a Half-Fiend Bugbear Fighter 4 with Int 10 has 56 skillpoints to allocate: 8 times 6 for its three Humanoid hit dice [actually, that's 8 times 4 for the first Humanoid hit die, and another 8 times 2 for the second and third Humanoid hit dice], and another 2 times 4 for its Fighter levels.

BTW, the maximum ranks in a class skill would be 10, 5 for cross-class skills, since the creature has 7 hit dice total, even though its ECL (were it a PC) would be 12 (3 Humanoid levels, plus 4 Fighter levels, plus 1 LA for Bugbear, plus 4 LA for Half-Fiend).

 

[Luigiana]

The (8+Int) * (HD+3) calculation only refers to hit dice the templated creature gains from its race. For hit dice gained from class levels, Half-Fiends use the normal skillpoints/level for those class levels.

For example, a Half-Fiend Bugbear Fighter 4 with Int 10 has 56 skillpoints to allocate: 8 times 6 for its three Humanoid hit dice [actually, that's 8 times 4 for the first Humanoid hit die, and another 8 times 2 for the second and third Humanoid hit dice], and another 2 times 4 for its Fighter levels.

BTW, the maximum ranks in a class skill would be 10, 5 for cross-class skills, since the creature has 7 hit dice total, even though its ECL (were it a PC) would be 12 (3 Humanoid levels, plus 4 Fighter levels, plus 1 LA for Bugbear, plus 4 LA for Half-Fiend).

sorry but i really didn't understand anything at all of what you just said.. all those number merely confused me even more.. and it was not an answer to my question
my question was, how many skill points would a level 4 fighter human with half-fiend get.. not a bugbear..

 

[Rampant]

Class hit dice generally don't get modified by templates. He gets the normal fighter skill points, modified by his higher int score.

 

[kitcik]

Class hit dice generally don't get modified by templates. He gets the normal fighter skill points, modified by his higher int score.

This is correct since he has no racial hit dice. [MENTION=78958]Empirate[/MENTION] was trying to illustrate a case where the special skill point math came into play - by choosing a race with racial hit dice. I think...

 

[Empirate]

That's right, kitcik.

*OP: I hope your not understanding anything I was saying is just a language problem, because I can't make it much clearer... but let's try anyway:

Every creature has hit dice.

An individual's hit dice are the sum of its racial hit dice and its class levels.

Some creatures, such as Humans, only have 1 racial hit die. Such creatures exchange their racial hit die for a class level once they gain a class. Afterwards, they only have hit dice derived from class levels.

All creatures gain a certain number of skillpoints for each hit die they possess. The first hit die provides quadruple that number.

How many skillpoints are gained for each hit die depends on creature type (for racial hit dice) and class (for hit dice gained from class levels).

The Half-Fiend template turns the base creature into an Outsider. Outsiders receive (8+Int modifier) skillpoints for each of their racial hit dice. As usual, the first hit die counts quadruple for this.

If the base creature only has one racial hit die (such as a Human), then that racial hit die still disappears upon gaining the first class level. The fact that that racial hit die is now (after applying the Half-Fiend template) an Outsider hit die doesn't change this.

So how many skillpoints does a Half-Fiend Human Fighter 4 get? (3+Int modifier) * 7, that's how many. Calculation:

(2 [Fighter base]
+1 [Human]
+Int mod)
*
(4 [1st level]
+3 [2nd through 4th levels])


Note thate the Half-Fiend template doesn't change anything about this, because the Human loses his racial hit die upon gaining his first level of Fighter; further note that the Half-Fiend template increases Int, so it does still have a small bearing on skillpoint gain.


Was that clear enough?

 

[frankthedm]

Some creatures, such as Humans, only have 1 racial hit die.

This isn't precisely true. Humans don't get a racial hit die, they have a class level [usually Level 1 commoner]. The rule you seem to be referring to is...

Humanoids and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Humans don't ever need this because they start off with a class level. Heck I would suspect most humans would rather have the benefits of a Humanoid HD than a craptastic commoner level.

 

[Luigiana]

That's right, kitcik.

*OP: I hope your not understanding anything I was saying is just a language problem, because I can't make it much clearer... but let's try anyway:

Every creature has hit dice.

An individual's hit dice are the sum of its racial hit dice and its class levels.

Some creatures, such as Humans, only have 1 racial hit die. Such creatures exchange their racial hit die for a class level once they gain a class. Afterwards, they only have hit dice derived from class levels.

All creatures gain a certain number of skillpoints for each hit die they possess. The first hit die provides quadruple that number.

How many skillpoints are gained for each hit die depends on creature type (for racial hit dice) and class (for hit dice gained from class levels).

The Half-Fiend template turns the base creature into an Outsider. Outsiders receive (8+Int modifier) skillpoints for each of their racial hit dice. As usual, the first hit die counts quadruple for this.

If the base creature only has one racial hit die (such as a Human), then that racial hit die still disappears upon gaining the first class level. The fact that that racial hit die is now (after applying the Half-Fiend template) an Outsider hit die doesn't change this.

So how many skillpoints does a Half-Fiend Human Fighter 4 get? (3+Int modifier) * 7, that's how many. Calculation:

(2 [Fighter base]
+1 [Human]
+Int mod)
*
(4 [1st level]
+3 [2nd through 4th levels])


Note thate the Half-Fiend template doesn't change anything about this, because the Human loses his racial hit die upon gaining his first level of Fighter; further note that the Half-Fiend template increases Int, so it does still have a small bearing on skillpoint gain.


Was that clear enough?

but it still says you get (8+int) * (hd+3) do you still get the +3 hd? so a fighter level 1 gets (8+int mod) * 7?

*4 for level 1 and *3 for the hd?

 

[Empirate]

but it still says you get (8+int) * (hd+3) do you still get the +3 hd? so a fighter level 1 gets (8+int mod) * 7?

*4 for level 1 and *3 for the hd?

I don't get this at all. You seem to think that the following line means you add hit dice when applying the Half-Fiend template. That is not the case.

Skills

A half-fiend gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-fiend gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

You don't get +3 HD from the Half-Fiend template. The template doesn't add any hit dice whatsoever. It just gives you the Outsider type. Outsiders gain a certain number of skillpoints for their racial hit dice. That number is 8, plus your Int mod as per usual for calculating skillpoints.

So, in order to calculate skillpoint gain from racial HD for a Half-Fiend, you take your racial HD only (and only if you have any), add three, and multiply the resulting number by skillpoints/level: 8+Int mod.

The reason you add three to your racial HD when calculating skillpointsis that the first HD counts quadruple for the sake of calculating skillpoints. So the calculation is:
First racial HD gains (8+Int mod) times 4 skillpoints,
all other racial HD gain (8+Int mod) skillpoints.
This results in a total of (8+Int mod) times (HD+3) skillpoints.


To drive it home:
All this is just about calculating skillpoints from racial HD. Humans don't have racial HD after taking up a class, any class. The Half-Fiend template doesn't add, subtract or change a Human's HD because it only affects racial HD.