Half-orc revisions

[BryonD]

Actually, this thread is evidence. It is not proof however.

Your experience has not matched mine.

Yes I have seen a lot of people whine about half-orcs. IME, a large fraction of those people have been uncontrolled powergamers who want it all, +2 STR AND a laundry list of other perks.

If they give in to these people, they will be targeting the "munchkin", "no-role-playing" crowd.

 

[Gez]

Every min-maxing barbarian will want to be a half-orc. Point? I don't see elves as exceptional in this regard. This "elves are munchkin" sentiment strikes me as a holdover from 2e, as they are not especially strong in 3e.

No, not every min-maxing barbarian. Because there is the Wood Elf also: +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. It's like a half-orc, with a bit less hit point, a better AC, low-light vision rather than darkvision, and the whole slew of elven traits (if he don't care about the redundant free proficiencies, the skill bonuses, autoscanner, resistances and immunities, and reduced resting time are all extremely interesting).

Elves, as in "default elves" or "elves from the PH" are OK (but I still find the trance & sleep immunity thing silly and needing removal). But elves as in "any elves out there" is always going to be a minmaxer's best choice.

Halflings, to a lesser extent, also have this "We can be anything" problem. Lightfeet are OK, but then you have little human (strongheart), little elves (tallfellows), little dwarves (deep halflings), and little elfquest-type elves (ghostwise). No little gnome, that would have been overkill.

 

[Nail]

Argg......by Vecna's left eye socket.....tempted into another "Half-Orcs got the Shaft" thread.

Curse you, Aloïsius.

If they give in to these people, they will be targeting the "munchkin", "no-role-playing" crowd.

Bah! Humbug!

Compared to elves, dwarves, halflings, and (need I add) gnomes, there are two races that stand out as the losers:

Half-Elf
Half-Orc

That's really a given. Being a munchkin or no, these are poor choices for a PC race. And that's too bad, as they could be great RP races. They've got the whole "out-cast" schtick working for them.

The ability mods to the half-orc balance. No net gain. They do for all of the races.

But all of the other races gain other abilities. The two half-races get practically nothing. Point for point, the half-races lose. The vast majority of gamer experience points to that. Group after group has experience with this. What's really left to argue?

I'd say the only thing left to decide is "what else should the half-races get"? Personally, it wouldn't have to be much. Perhaps scent for the half-orcs and free pairs of frilly purple pants for the half-elves.

But then again, the elves always were power-gamers.

 

[Bagpuss]

Never seen a half-elf or a half-orc PC but then we haven't had a whole lot of PC's in our D&D games yet.

I don't think the half-orc is underpowered, its just so boring. Its +2 Str and that's it nothing else except drawbacks.

At the moment if you take a Half-Orc you play a Barbarian or Fighter or you play a weaker character.

The double attribute penalty hits a wide range of classes, making them much less appealing. The Sorerer, Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Bard and Ranger in each one or both of your useful attributes takes a hit to just so you get the 'powerful' +2 Str (which isn't that powerful to a lot of those classes), sure it makes a great racial sterotype but its boring.

Something nice but having very little game effect like say

+2 to Wilderness Lore checks as they have learned to survive away from societies that shuns them.

Every other none human race get some skill bonuses.

Not a significant change but it might make a player consider it for a Ranger PC.

 

[Crothian]

If they give in to these people, they will be targeting the "munchkin", "no-role-playing" crowd.

Maybe that just means we are out of touch with the people who play D&D. Sure, we like to think we are the traditional players, but the more I think about it we are sitting in the EN World Ivory Tower. We are spoiled with ideas and information. We have examples of some of the greatest DM's in the world to help us and advise us to perfect our gaming style. However, we are the minority. Most gamers don't have the internet and of those that do, only a minority come here. I think this shows that Wizards is listening to the people who play the game, and we are not them.

 

[Nail]

I think this shows that Wizards is listening to the people who play the game, and we are not them.

Crothian, that is really a stunning insight. (I'm being serious.)

Now that I think about it, most of the gamers I've met in the past 2 years have never been to ENWorld.

They thought I was an absolute genius when I explained how AoOs work. Many of them were flabergasted when I showed them my twinked out Bbn/Rgr/Ftr. Several were amazed that I could construct a low level chatacter than could do over 200 hp of damage in one round.

The mind boggles. How do gamers deprived of this resource survive?

 

[BryonD]

Well Nail,

You present a much better arguement.

I am still of the opinion that the ability mods actually ARE a perk. As previosuly discussed, it is easy to craft a STR based character where INT and CHR are throw aways. So it is a net plus.

That is my opinion. And my game experience has supported it.

And I think if you gave a +2 STR race a bunch (or even a few) other perks, you would soon find every remotely power game oriented player choosing them for fighters. That would be much worse than where we are now.

Maybe the solution woudl be an alternate half-orc that doesn't get the +2 STR, but gets a longer list of interesting racial attributes. Heck, just use the human stats and call it half-orc.

I'll point out that you have quoted me somewhat out of context. I wasn't trying to establish a case, so much as respond to reapersaurus statement.

They can't just simplistically call a +2 STR race "very powerful", unless their target audience truly IS the "munchkin", "no-role-playing" crowd.

That press statement actually makes me wonder as to who this 3.5Edition is geared towards now.

Debating whether a race is weak is one thing. But to claim that leaving a weak race weak is "geared towards" munchkins is just silly.

 

[Drakron]

Sure, they are a good choice for non-fighters, but entirely redundant for fighter types.

There are 2 non-fighter types, wizard and sorceror ... and even those can use some spells to bluff and enter "hand-to-hand" combat.

Everyone else benefic from then with the exception of druids.

But it's not a munchkin choice. Having bow proficiency as a wizard is not going to give you the BAB or strength to use it effectively. It just gives you a little more latitude with your weapon choices once you run out of spells.

Bows dont usually need high Str, they need Dex.

As for raising BAB ... True Strike that is a lv1 spell.

[q]
I didn't mention that, but now that you do, it is a severe detriment to fighter types.

[/b]

Depends ...

A fitness fighter dont need high Str scores so he can use the points to raise his Con instead.

A devoted archer sould never enter allow his enemy to reach him and he is more conserned in his Dex score being as high as possible.

Monks are "hit-and-run" attackers, being hit is something they sould avoid since they are not intended to stay in the front line and soak damage.

Con is only good for when its a dedicated tank, the only aspect were elves are lacking.

Once again, this supposed benefit is only a benefit if you analyze it in a vacuum. Relying on weapon finesse will put you YET ANOTHER feat behind a human fighter.

That is not much compared that elves gain some things that humans never do, like being immune to charm and sleep effects and that +2 for saves against enchantments is a feat.

The free feat is far more telling in PrC access than racial blood ever will be.

No, only way to qualify for Bladesinger or Arcane Archer is being a elf or half-elf.

Humand extra feat dont allow then to pick that PtC.

In short, there is nothing that elves have that isn't more than counterbalanced by humans. Simply put, elves are not a greatly appealing choice from a powergaming standpoint in 3e (much less half elves.)

There is only two advantage that humans have, a extra feat and favored class: any.

Thats it, elves gain "racial feats" and racial PtC and equipment.

 

[Wolv0rine]

What really disturbs me (and it's not universal, of course, but it does seem prevelant (sp?)) is the way that Half-Orcs (and thus Orcs -- or is it the other way around?) are treated.

It seems that everyone and their brother got suckered into presuming that Orcs are stupid. I blame the Ultima Online crowd, myself, and their idiotic way of playing Orcs (Anyone who's seem someone play an Orc on UO, or even a Half-Orc on NWN it seems, should know what I mean. That ridiculous orcish pig-english they use, gods...).

Now, I know that Orcs in the D&D game have never been geniuses, but I like to presume that my Orcs are not drooling morons. And if Humans are not drooling morons, and Orcs are not drooling morons, then Why in the 9 Hells would Half-Orcs be drooling morons frequently unable to rise above the level of "Me smash door, kill sumfin!"

Is it shafted? I think a lot of players shaft their half-orc PCs, yeah. I also disagree that all stats are not equal in worth, so... yeah I think the stat modifiers are wonky, too. But it all works.

 

[DwarvenBrew]

In terms of the basic PhB races, I would take a dwarf or gnome wizard over an elf one any day of the week. Con is much more valuable than Dex, especially to arcane casters. Dex is helpful some of the time, Con is usefull ALL of the time.

Obviously we must be looking at different WotC boards, because when I used to post there, almost all min/max characters were HUMANS unless they were non-standard PhB races.

Elves have nice perks in the lower levels, but the resistance to sleep and weapon proficiences are all but useless by level 10. Most min/maxers plan their characters to level 20 before they even roll a dice, and tend to be long-term focused. In short, a Human is a far more viable race from a min/max perspective as most of the elf's racial abilities are fairly irrelevant in the high-end game. My "datapoints" of viewing forums like WotC seem to be the exact opposite of the "elf is elite" veiwpoint.