Half-Speed for Listen and Hide - is what?

[morgue]

Hey everyone, there might be an obvious answer to this but I'm tying myself in knots over it. Checked the latest official FAQ and did a google search to no avail, so if this has been resolved before I apologise... I was giving a close read to the rules for Hide and Move Silently vs. Spot and Listen, and noticed something that seems to be inconsistent. In the Hide description (p76), it says:

"You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty."

Which is basically identical to Move Silently (p79):

"You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty."

But, I started asking myself, what does "normal speed" actually mean? Your normal walking speed out of encounters, which is your Speed per round? Or your normal speed in an encounter, which is your Speed per action? (per PHB p162) That's when it got confusing. In Hide (p76) it says:

"For example, Lidda has a speed of 20 feet. If she doesn't want to take a penalty on her Hide check, she can move only 10 feet as a move action (up to a maximum of 20 feet in a round)."

So this example clearly states that half-speed means half of your encounter speed; it is the same as your normal walking speed out of encounters, equalling your Speed per round. But over in the entry for Listen (p78) it says in the table:

"Listen DC 10: An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise... the indicated DC would be their average check result (or close to it)."

So the unarmored person is using Move Silently without penalty. They are specified as walking at a quarter of their encounter speed, which is half their normal walking speed out of encounters. Why are they going so slow? If the Lidda example counts, then they can walk twice as fast (30 ft. per round) and still avoid a penalty.

So which of these two examples is right? Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[hong]

"Normal speed" = speed per round. Where did you get the idea that walking speed out of encounters is different to speed per round?

 

[morgue]

"Normal speed" = speed per round. Where did you get the idea that walking speed out of encounters is different to speed per round?

Like I reference in the earlier post - p162 of the PHB.

Table 9:3 has Movement rates per round. For a 20 ft. speed person, they can Walk at 20 ft. per round and Hustle (double move) at 40 ft. per round.

Which is fine until you get to the Lidda example, where 20 ft. per round counts as 'half speed'. According to this example, 'half speed' is normal walking speed.

But over in Listen, 'half speed' is half normal walking speed.

(Dunno if I'm communicating this well, because I have to keep saying the word 'speed' a bunch of times to mean different things.)

 

[hong]

If you have speed 30', you can move at 15' per move action to hide without a penalty. You get two move actions in a round (more or less), so you can cover 30' total.

 

[morgue]

If you have speed 30', you can move at 15' per move action to hide without a penalty. You get two move actions in a round (more or less), so you can cover 30' total.

This is how I've always played it. The problem I've discovered is that it makes example DCs in Listen nonsensical. Here's the quote again:

"Listen DC 10: An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise... the indicated DC would be their average check result (or close to it)."

This says 15'/round total, not 30'/round total.

Have we uncovered an error in the Listen skill entry, then?

 

[morgue]

So, anyone else?

At the moment, I'd just be happy with someone saying their rulebook says what my rulebook says. We can argue about what that means later.

 

[frankthedm]

This is how I've always played it. The problem I've discovered is that it makes example DCs in Listen nonsensical. Here's the quote again:

"Listen DC 10: An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise... the indicated DC would be their average check result (or close to it)."

This says 15'/round total, not 30'/round total.

Have we uncovered an error in the Listen skill entry, then?

No error. Walking is 30' a round. People do not walk in combat, they hustle. Trying to move quietly in combat cuts one's speed a lot.

Hustle
A hustle is a jog at about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human. A character moving his or her speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action is hustling when he or she moves.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

No error..

"walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise... " is equal to half the normal walking speed of 30' per round...or one move action

Had it been "hustling (30 ft./round) trying not to make any noise..." would work just as well...and would be two move actions.

As written it just doesn't make sense on the first read through..but its right

 

[morgue]

No error..

"walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise... " is equal to half the normal walking speed of 30' per round...or one move action

Had it been "hustling (30 ft./round) trying not to make any noise..." would work just as well...and would be two move actions.

As written it just doesn't make sense on the first read through..but its right

Okay, this starts to make some sense to me.

Lidda is taking a double-move action - hustling while trying to make no noise.
The Listen exemplar is taking a single-move action - walking while trying to make no noise.

So, the inconsistency is that Lidda is taking a double-move action, and the Listen exemplar is taking a single-move action.

That explanation matches how I've always played it, but it does leave unanswered my initial question - why is the Listen exemplar only taking a single-move action? He or she can Hustle and still be without penalty!

If this explanation is right then, at best, it is a poorly written example.

 

[morgue]

Okay, I think I just figured out a way to say why this is bugging me. Let me flip it around...

You are the GM. I'm playing a rogue. My normal walking speed is 30 ft./round. In an encounter I can step up to a hustle, 60 ft./round.

I want to go through some rooms hiding and sneaking, which means half-speed.

Do you tell me I have to limit myself to...

(a) normal walking speed, 30 ft./round.
(b) half normal walking speed, 15 ft./round.

I think we're all agreed it's (a). As long as I'm at walking speed I can hide and sneak without penalty. Which means that, out of combat, 'half-speed' means 'normal speed'.

I think the entry in the Listen table is indisputably misleading, and the wording of the whole thing is messy. It would be better to say:
* If you are Walking you suffer no penalty
* If you are going faster than a Walk but not as fast as your full Hustle rate you suffer a -5 penalty
* If you are running you suffer a -20 penalty

And to change the Listen table's entry so it says "walking and trying not to make any noise" not "walking slowly (15 ft./round) and trying not to make any noise."