D&D 5E Halfling rogue sniping from the the second rank

[Sir Brennen]

Why should doing it more than once become harder due to conditions that already prevail in the first attempt, and for which Naturally Stealthy doesn't factor?

Because as soon you make that first attack, that in itself changes conditions.

But a sidebar first...

It's hard to separate out the Naturally Stealthy ability into another equivalent example, because NS seems to give you the ability to hide - become unseen - under circumstances where you'd normally be seen, specifically, partial cover from another creature. Add to that the assumption that the halfling can see his opponent while thus hidden, that means he can attack while still hidden, thus granting advantage. His location is revealed once he does, so he has to hide again to get the same advantage. This seems to be the popular interpretation of the ability.

A less ambiguous example of pretty much the same ability for Wood Elves is Mask of the Wild. Normally you can see someone that has Light Obscurement, so they can't hide from you. But Wood Elves can (for certain types of Light Obscurement). They can hide - become unseen - but can still see you to attack under circumstances where you would normally be able to see them right back.

If it's a human rogue hiding behind a wall, well, to hide they have to be unseen, meaning total cover, and if they have total cover, they can't see the enemy. To attack they have to put themselves in a position to see you, and therefore, to be seen. So no advantage for attacking unseen. As I've stated before, if you were hiding before the enemy was aware of your presence, I'd allow the first attack with advantage, but after that, the enemy is paying closer attention to that spot.

So, as I said, the attack changes the circumstances - you've made the enemy aware of you, and your immediate intention to do them harm, and your tactic of sniping from your current location. The enemy paying specific attention to this and not, as others have said, acting like a Keystone Cop, falls under the "use common sense" statement in Mearls' answer. For the human rogue behind the wall, it negates his ability to attack unseen (for that target). For the halfling, it just makes it harder to keep hiding behind the same guy.

Obviously, over the course of this thread, there has been disagreement over the human rogue scenario I described. Some say a successful Hide still allows you to peek around the cover and make an attack unseen. Going with that logic, the scenario is then very similar to the Naturally Stealthy ability... Hide, attack with Adv, location revealed, need to Hide again, repeat. If you keep doing it from the same spot, the target is going to get wise sooner rather than later.

Now, if the first Hide attempt is during combat when your location is already known, which would be the same conditions as later attempts? Why was the first one normal and subsequent ones at disadvantage? Well, for Naturally Stealthy, a DM might rule the first was at DisAd too... "I totally see you moving behind that fighter and trying to hide!"* However, I think a ruling more in the spirit of how the ability is meant to be used would be the first attempt is normal. The enemy reasonably expects to still be able to see you somewhat behind half cover, not to completely disappear from view.

But once you attack... if you don't kill the target, they're going to think "Oh! You were there the whole time! I know to watch out for that now. Fool me once..."* The target's knowledge of what's going on is the condition that has changed, hence the subsequent disadvantage.

What Ilbranteloth and I have been saying, is that one way to counter this knowledge, is to do something different, even if that's just moving to a new spot to hide.

*Translated from Orcish

 

[Mistwell]

What Ilbranteloth and I have been saying, is that one way to counter this knowledge, is to do something different, even if that's just moving to a new spot to hide.

*Translated from Orcish

Which you can pretty easily do. You attacked from the spot you were already in. So you still have your full movement left. And you can use Cunning Action to hide as a bonus action. Provided there are at least two people in your party that are medium size or larger, you can just attack from behind one, move behind the other and hide, and then repeat next round.

Bottom line, the lightfoot halfling rogue may well be able to attack with advantage from range every round, with sneak attack on those attacks.

And if they take that feat, they may be doing an additional +10 damage with those attacks (though essentially negating their advantage).

 

[skotothalamos]

I'm going to tell a story about playing sports that may be relevant. I often find sports stories helpful when addressing D&D combat, because both feature a lot of things moving quickly and clear objectives.

I used to be a hockey goalie. Primarily, this means I had to work out the angles between the attacking player, the puck, and the goal, and try to put myself in a position that blocked as much of that angle as possible. Ideally, you would come out away from the goal, as close to the shooter as possible, to make yourself block a larger part of the "cone" of his possible successful attacks. But, you don't want to come out too far, or he'll just skate around you or pass to a friend with a better angle. Secondarily, you rely on quick reflexes to cover the shots that are going to the areas you haven't already covered. You need a good view to do both of these things.

This is where it starts to become relevant to Halfling snipers.

Attacking teams know that the goalie wants a good view of the shooter. So what do they do? They put a guy in place as a "screen." His job is literally to get in front of the goalie and obstruct his vision so he can't get the angle right or react in time. A defending player will move onto the guy and try to get him out of the way (sometimes). Sometimes, that defender gets the attacker out of the way, but ends up screening the shot himself. Sometimes well-meaning defenders try to block the shot themselves and end up only being another screen (sometimes they block the shot, but that's not the point right now).

Every game I have ever played (even pickup games where everyone just met), I have faced a screened shot. I know it's coming. The defense knows it's coming. Every shot I have faced that had a screen in front of it had a better chance of scoring than an equivalent un-screened shot. The fact that we all knew it was going to happen did not diminish its benefit to the offense. I submit that the Halfling Sniper's screened shot is just as difficult to deal with as the Human Hockey Player's screened shot. It gives an advantage, and it's good tactics. Simply knowing the tactic exists is not enough to counter it; you have to take measures to make it not happen.

What we did in hockey, which pretty much applies to D&D as well:

1) attack the shooter. Don't just let him sit there. Get someone on him. In 4e, this would have given an oppo. In 5e, you're nullifying the advantage.
2) move the screener. The grapple rules for hockey are far more in depth than 5e, but still, pushing/pulling the meat wall out of the way seems helpful.
3) move the defender. As a goalie, I could mostly only crane my neck around, but there were times where I would actually step past the screening player, covering both a shot or pass to him. In 5e, with the much more fluid OA rules, you can more easily get around a meat wall blocking access to the rogue.

There's a lot going on during a battle and it's easy to lose track of things. Let the rolls and rules do their job.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I'm going to tell a story about playing sports that may be relevant. I often find sports stories helpful when addressing D&D combat, because both feature a lot of things moving quickly and clear objectives.

One of the problems with using real world examples for D&D is they don't always map very well. Sometimes, but not always. I mean, I've done it myself, and been called on it.

For instance, if this is an effective tactic sports professionals can do in the real world, why can only a certain sub-race of halflings do it in D&D? Why can't all professional warriors?

Another difference, probably the biggest, is what if instead of the goal, the shooter was trying to hit you with the puck? Then the defender is as much in his way as yours. The first time he does it, your probably going to be caught by surprise "What the heck! Why isn't he shooting at goal?" After that, you're going to be more on your guard and watching for him trying to move around the defender to slap that puck at you again.

IRL, you as the goalie are trying to judge if the shooter has line of sight to a third point while he's partially obscured, which is hard and why the screening tactic works. But if he needs line of sight to you, it's easier, because that gives you line of sight to him right back. The "cone" of possible angles of attack (which exists as a function of the width of the goal and distance to it) is reduced to pretty much a straight line between you and him.

 

[Joe Liker]

For instance, if this is an effective tactic sports professionals can do in the real world, why can only a certain sub-race of halflings do it in D&D? Why can't all professional warriors?

Because lightfoot halflings are small, good at stealth, and good at sniping. Just like dwarves are good at understanding rocks, and elves are good at not falling asleep. You will never find sound scientific reasons for most racial abilities because magic. You just have to accept that they do what the description says they do and move on.

 

[Vaeron]

My instinct is that if you know exactly where something is, it can't possibly be hidden from you, but the rule certainly suggests otherwise .Still, surely this could be countered just by readying an action to zap the halfling when it pops its head back out again? And you could always populate an enemy party with an occasional NPC LF halfling if things got really out of hand.

 

[Psikerlord#]

My instinct is that if you know exactly where something is, it can't possibly be hidden from you, but the rule certainly suggests otherwise .Still, surely this could be countered just by readying an action to zap the halfling when it pops its head back out again? And you could always populate an enemy party with an occasional NPC LF halfling if things got really out of hand.

This doesnt fix it in the sense that the unseen attacker gets adv on their attack, that's the main problem, combined with SA, the feat that gives you +10 dmg, and the rogue ability to hide as a bonus action...

Happily however the hiding rules are vague and confusing, allowing them to be interpreted in a number of ways. My take is you can only hide normally in the ambush situation, then after that, once combat is on and your opponents know youre in the vicinity, you can only attempt to hide with disad (as Mearls suggested in his tweet). And I agree with an earlier poster that if you managed to hide again even with disad (quite possibly with a rogue with expertise), I would give adv to the observer on any further attempts. In my view it ought to get harder and harder to snipe in combat, the longer it goes on, the more and more attention the combatants will be giving the deadly sniper. That, and it will of course be good for game balance, as simply allowing a maxed out sniper rogue to rain crazy damage every round from relative safety will be OP, if not straight out broken....

I suspect however I will also be substituting the lightfoot ability for the wood elf one. The "you can hide behind your ally!" nonsense just rubs against my sense of immersion too much.