D&D 3E/3.5 HALP! New to 4E, 3.5 makes me not understand :(

[Brujoloco]

Hellou guys, I recently started a 4E campagin with my old gaming group, and unfortunately, the 3.5 darkness clouds a lot of our assumed conceptions regarding play (main reason we switched to Alternity/CoC etc, we hated the monster 3.0/3.5 was)

Now I have a few questions to help me understand certain things.

I have been lurking the forums trying to find answers to my plight, but havent found anything relevant, perhaps It's too obvious I can't see it (it happens sometimes)


Ok first question

1) Can I attack monsters if I have allies in front of me and have no direct line of sight to them?

X=empty squares
I=me
P=Player/ally
M=Monster
P
IxxxxPxxxxPM
P


1.1) Is there no such thing as a penalty to attacking enemies with ranged weapons if allies are adjacent to them?
1.2) If I use a ranged power/spell against a monster that targets it, what happens if I use it through a cloud/spell that grants concealment? I get the regular -2 penalty for concealment and thats it? or I can't cuz I can't see it?
1.3) Can the Monster in the above diagram target me? attack me? look at me in an evil way?
1.4) If the monster is concealed and I am concealed too do we have -2 to each other to attack? (if I can attack at all regarding question 1)

2) Can I move Blast areas around even with walls nearby or using walls as a buffer for extra blast space I dont want?


I=me
x=empty squares
W=wall
M=monster
@=burst


Regular 5 blast for example
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
x@@@@@xxxx
x@@@@@xxxx
I@@@@@xxxx
x@@@@@xxxx
x@@@@@xxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

What if there's a wall nearby? (can I use it like this?)

wwwwwwwwwwwww
I@@@@@xxxxxxxx
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Implying that I moved the other 4 5x5 rows of the burst 5 into the wall? Doing this cuz I dont want to hit other players or dont want to burn/freeze/damage specific furniture/totem/altar in the way? or do I have to use THE FULL BURST and can't let some of it leak or be dissipated?


Also this assumes that I can move bursts around and not only in the two directions the PHB assumes


Regular PHB Blast 3 for example

FRONT

xxxxxxx
x@@@x
I@@@x
x@@@x
xxxxxxx

DIAGONALLY

Ixxxxxx
x@@@x
x@@@x
x@@@x
xxxxxxx

Can I move them around?


Like this?


@@@
@@@
I@@@


or with a 5

IIIIIIIIIIIII
I@@@@@I
I@@@@@I
I@@@@@I
I@@@@@I
I@@@@@I
IIIIIIIIIIIII
wherein I can place the I (me the point of origin)on any square as long as I maintain the shape of the Blast 5?

Wich leads me to my original question #2 of me being able to assume some of the blast can be lost in the wall for example?


3) What happens if a Monster pushes a PC into a single square hole with a power and then a diff player pushes the monster into the same hole?

I assume that when people fall into holes they fall prone (they do officially?)
3.1) what if its a dwarf?
3.2) if the monster falls on the hole and the player was climbing does it drag it away to the bottom?
3.3) if the player was standing upright in the bottom and the monster falls on top of him what happens? he dodges it? it falls upon his head making both prone?
3.4)The player when trying to climb out makes a Climb check , does it count as part of his movement? is it a minor action? is it free? how much can he move up?
3.4.1 What if the player was climbing out and for some reason was in the middle , lets say the hole was a single square on map and was about 10 squares deep and ended up in the middle during the moment the monster was thrown inside? He falls with the monster? he dodges it bracing the wall? what mechanic should I use for it?


4) Arcana Based rituals can be performed by clerics? (confused on the arcana=mages religion=clerics thing)

5) My dwarven cleric player used an arcana ritual (hence question #4) to summon a Tenser Floating Disk. Reading the power description as stated he used it as a moving "throne/platform " to avoid triggering pressure traps and move over a chasm. I had to rule that the disc floats in relation to a grounded surface, so he was unable to cross the chasm. Can he do this LEGALLY? can he float around and move adjacent to enemies in the disk? Attack them? How can this be solved/nerfed? Everybody in my party is trying to cash up on this :/
5.1 Can the disk actually FLOAT without a grounded surface? can he glide down for example towards the bottom of a chasm ? or the disk simply falls like a lump of lead?
5.2 During one dungeon delving exploration the party found a one square hole trap wich after triggering they "covered" it with the disk so they could walk safely over it, is this legal?

6) Can you walk through allies during combat?
6.1 if you can, what happens if during movement thru several allies end up in a square that looked empty but you unknowingly triggered a trap that when it fails to hit you it places you back on the closest square adjacent to it (the same level 1 hole trap) ? Since he already moved say 5 squares (4 of them thru allies in a narrow corridor and the 5th square, wich looked clear was a pit hole trap and it failed to "hit" him) I ruled he fell prone on the square occupied by his ally (this was a turn based situation cuz goblins where on the far end of the corridor peepering them with arrows)
6.2 This leads me to the next complication, if I allow them to be prone (thus being able to crawl) inside allies squares and there's no more space to where they can move, they have to remain prone in there?
6.3 A fallen unconscious ally is technically prone, and allies can move into his square and fight from there, what happens if onthe next turn he rolls a nat 20 while an ally is still on the same square, how do you handle this? he crawls out of the space? what if he is surrounded on all sides by enemies? he is active, but prone and the only one able to fight is his friend and he has to remain prone? can he at least slash the enemies feet? or gnaw at them or is he completely worthless?

7) The Wizard Daily Power Flaming Sphere, what is the reach of it regarding 3D space? A wizard summoned it right in the middle of a group of goblins who some where on the ground and others a couple feet up in niches on a wall? does it count as a Cube regarding the squares it affects?
7.1 wich leads me to how much is officially a square on a 2d plane? 5x5 feet?
7.2 Also the power confused some of us, the extra 1d4+Int mod for starting your turn in an adjacent square to it is AUTOMATIC? or does the wizard needs to roll attack?


8) Attribute Modifiers / Half Level Bonus / Attack Bonus

I was having quite a debate with some friends here regarding the proper way to read a power card. For instance, Magic Missile is 2d4+Int Modifier, lets say I have an Int 18 Wizard who is also level 1.

So his dmg would be 2d4+4 at level 1 yes? so when he goes up a level the damage would be 2d4+5? or the damage can only go up by raising his int to 20? and the half level abil mod is for attack only?

8.1Also, If you are proficient with a weapon, you get a +2 Attack bonus to it yes? Does this apply to ranged attacks with spells? Someone was arguing he was "proficient" with his magic missiles (yes I have that kind of players)


Well, thats it ... for now

Cheers!

 

[mach1.9pants]

OK here is my take on some of them:
1. Allies (in fact any creature) don't block LoS, so no probs shooting through them PHB273. Enemies grant cover (-2) PHB280 .
1.1 You can fire into melee without penalty, unlike 3E.
1.2 Depends on the concealment.. concealment is just that, like a bit of fog. Total concealment breaks line of sight and you can't target through it.
1.3 Yep if he has an attack that can reach you he can. But you have cover so -2 to hit for him. And if he uses a ranged wep or ranged attack he will provoke an OA.
1.4 if you have concealment, no matter what from or where you are you get -2 to attack each.

2 yep to all that. As long as the blast originates frm a square next to you you are good to go. If some of the squares are blocked then they have no effect (ie wall in your example)

3 You can't force move someone to end the forced move in an illegal square.
However Just rule as you want the game doesn't contain exact rules for pushing into one square holes! Note that the character would get a save to prevent being pushed into a hole.

4 Arcana based rituals can be performed by anyone with the Ritual Caster feat, clerics, bards, fighters that have spent a feat on it etc. If you have ritual caster you can cast any ritual, but note specific feat restrictions i.e. Bard rituals.

5. there was a big ho ha about this when it first came out, I can't remember the outcome but I would say the disk would drop to float just above the holes bottom. Just IMC though.

6. Move through allied squares at will as long as you don't END in an allies square. If you are forced (by whatever) to end in an allies square ou are prone (you can go in an allies square if they are prone) so that makes it 'legal'. Standing up from prone includes shift one, to move out of the allies square.
6.3 When he rolls a 20 he is OK but prone. Then he can use a stand up from prone action to shift out of the square and stand up. If he can't do this he will have to spend crawl actions to get out of the way.

7. real prob this, there is no ruling that I know of. DnD is totally 2d. It has no decent height rules, hopefully something will be added or someone will point us to the right place if it is out there.

8. 1/2 level does not apply to damage

Good luck

 

[NMcCoy]

1) Can I attack monsters if I have allies in front of me and have no direct line of sight to them?

X=empty squares
I=me
P=Player/ally
M=Monster
P
IxxxxPxxxxPM
P

You do have line of sight to this monster, and can attack with no penalty. Your ally gives you Cover against that monster's Ranged (and only Ranged) attacks.

1.1) Is there no such thing as a penalty to attacking enemies with ranged weapons if allies are adjacent to them?

There is no such penalty, but if another enemy blocks your line to the target they grant it cover against your Ranged attacks.

1.2) If I use a ranged power/spell against a monster that targets it, what happens if I use it through a cloud/spell that grants concealment? I get the regular -2 penalty for concealment and thats it? or I can't cuz I can't see it?

Concealment is a -2 penalty to Melee and Ranged attacks against the target. You can still see it normally. Total Concealment is a -5 penalty, and if the enemy is Hidden you don't know what square it's in.

1.3) Can the Monster in the above diagram target me? attack me? look at me in an evil way?

It can attack you, but your ally grants you Cover if the monster uses a Ranged attack.

1.4) If the monster is concealed and I am concealed too do we have -2 to each other to attack? (if I can attack at all regarding question 1)

This is correct.

2) Can I move Blast areas around even with walls nearby or using walls as a buffer for extra blast space I dont want?
[...snip...]

wherein I can place the I (me the point of origin)on any square as long as I maintain the shape of the Blast 5?

Wich leads me to my original question #2 of me being able to assume some of the blast can be lost in the wall for example?

All of this is legitimate usage of a Close Blast.

3) What happens if a Monster pushes a PC into a single square hole with a power and then a diff player pushes the monster into the same hole?

I assume that when people fall into holes they fall prone (they do officially?)

Normally, when you fall you end up prone when you hit the ground. I would rule that creatures forced to occupy the same space (by falling for example) are squeezing, but that's RAI.

3.1) what if its a dwarf?

The dwarf reduces the forced movement by 1. If the movement would push the dwarf off the edge still, the dwarf gets a saving throw to fall prone instead of off the edge (as usual when forced off an edge). If the dwarf makes this save, then the dwarf gets another save to avoid becoming prone after all.

3.2) if the monster falls on the hole and the player was climbing does it drag it away to the bottom?

This is within the DM's purview to decide as the situation warrants. I would require another Athletics check to stay on the wall.

3.3) if the player was standing upright in the bottom and the monster falls on top of him what happens? he dodges it? it falls upon his head making both prone?

Again, DM's discretion to decide. Skill checks are appropriate.

3.4)The player when trying to climb out makes a Climb check , does it count as part of his movement? is it a minor action? is it free? how much can he move up?

Athletics checks to climb are incorporated part of a move action. You climb at half your speed. See p.182 of the PHB.

3.4.1 What if the player was climbing out and for some reason was in the middle , lets say the hole was a single square on map and was about 10 squares deep and ended up in the middle during the moment the monster was thrown inside? He falls with the monster? he dodges it bracing the wall? what mechanic should I use for it?

Have the player make a Climb check against the surface's DC to maintain their grip. (p.182).

4) Arcana Based rituals can be performed by clerics? (confused on the arcana=mages religion=clerics thing)

To perform a ritual, you must be trained in the key skill of that ritual. If your cleric is trained in Arcana they can perform any Arcana rituals they have.

5) My dwarven cleric player used an arcana ritual (hence question #4) to summon a Tenser Floating Disk. Reading the power description as stated he used it as a moving "throne/platform " to avoid triggering pressure traps and move over a chasm. I had to rule that the disc floats in relation to a grounded surface, so he was unable to cross the chasm. Can he do this LEGALLY? can he float around and move adjacent to enemies in the disk? Attack them? How can this be solved/nerfed? Everybody in my party is trying to cash up on this :/

The disk "floats a foot off the ground". If it's higher than that, I'd rule that it drops until it's a foot off whatever ground is below it, and the player takes falling damage accordingly. You can ride the disk in combat, if you like, but note that while you can command the disk to move you cannot command it to shift...

5.1 Can the disk actually FLOAT without a grounded surface? can he glide down for example towards the bottom of a chasm ? or the disk simply falls like a lump of lead?
5.2 During one dungeon delving exploration the party found a one square hole trap wich after triggering they "covered" it with the disk so they could walk safely over it, is this legal?

Only if the pit is less than a foot deep. One square is five feet by five feet. The disk is 3 feet in diameter.

6) Can you walk through allies during combat?

Absolutely.

6.1 if you can, what happens if during movement thru several allies end up in a square that looked empty but you unknowingly triggered a trap that when it fails to hit you it places you back on the closest square adjacent to it (the same level 1 hole trap) ?

The player is placed in any available open space adjacent to the trap, not just the one they left.

6.3 A fallen unconscious ally is technically prone, and allies can move into his square and fight from there, what happens if onthe next turn he rolls a nat 20 while an ally is still on the same square, how do you handle this?

Recovering from dying does not make you stand up. If you're standing from prone, you can shift 1 square if your space is occupied. Per PHB 282: "Occupied Space: If your space is occupied by another creature, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied by other creatures, you can’t stand up."

7) The Wizard Daily Power Flaming Sphere, what is the reach of it regarding 3D space? A wizard summoned it right in the middle of a group of goblins who some where on the ground and others a couple feet up in niches on a wall? does it count as a Cube regarding the squares it affects?

"Adjacent" includes vertical "squares" as well.

7.1 wich leads me to how much is officially a square on a 2d plane? 5x5 feet?

Yes.

7.2 Also the power confused some of us, the extra 1d4+Int mod for starting your turn in an adjacent square to it is AUTOMATIC? or does the wizard needs to roll attack?

The damage dealt is automatic, with no attack roll needed.

8) Attribute Modifiers / Half Level Bonus / Attack Bonus

Your "Intelligence modifier" (which is what the damage says) is based on the Int score alone. The other thing is "Mod + 1/2 Level", which is used for defenses, attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.

8.1Also, If you are proficient with a weapon, you get a +2 Attack bonus to it yes? Does this apply to ranged attacks with spells? Someone was arguing he was "proficient" with his magic missiles (yes I have that kind of players)

When you are proficient with a weapon, you add that weapon's proficiency bonus to Weapon attack powers. Some weapons have a +2 proficiency, some have a +3. Regardless, Magic Missile is an Implement attack and never gets a proficiency bonus.

 

[Eldorian]

Forget about 3rd edition and reread the 4e players handbook. Don't ask yourself, where are they the same, where are they different, but instead just look at it as a new game. That would solve these problems.

 

[mach1.9pants]

@NMcCoy I hope this is not a thread derailment but just for me as a DM:
1. Where did you get this "To perform a ritual, you must be trained in the key skill of that ritual. If your cleric is trained in Arcana they can perform any Arcana rituals they have."? I can't find that at all...
2. Where did you get the info that a square is 5x5' {EDIT:x5'cube}? And is there any info on how many squares{EDIT: cubes} you occupy? A 6' guy is going to be in 2 vert squares{EDIT:cube} so I am confused by that.

Cheers, M1.9P

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

A square is 5' as per the "Visualizing the Action" sidebar on page 266 of the PHB.

Strictly speaking, it's actually more of a 5' cube, and the discrepancy between character height and square height is simply a result of the abstraction that's required in standardizing a three-dimensional grid. A 6' human is still Medium, and so is a 4' dwarf; most demonstrative is the Goliaths from the PHB2, who can be as tall as 7'8", and yet are still Medium. (Their original creation came from an offhanded comment from a 3rd edition developer that basketball players, despite being hugely tall, were still technically Medium creatures.)

If it helps, think of a race's size classification as being more of a function of volume than of height. A halfling can, by the PHB heights, be an inch shorter than a dwarf, but they're not medium because 4'3" is some kind of abstract minimum height; dwarves are Medium because they're stocky. (This is why they have a movement speed of 5 squares instead of 6, incidentally.)

 

[On Puget Sound]

To perform a ritual, you must be trained in the key skill of that ritual. If your cleric is trained in Arcana they can perform any Arcana rituals they have.

I don't think this is correct. You need training n Arcana OR Religion to select the "ritual casting" feat, but once you have that feat you may cast any ritual whether it needs Arcana, Heal, Nature, Religion... you need not be trained in the key skill. Exceptions: bard-only rituals require that you be a bard or multiclass as one, and beastmaster rangers get a ritual even though they don't necessarily have Ritual Casting for any other purpose.

 

[NMcCoy]

Huh. I stand corrected; my apologies to the original poster for spreading misinformation. Is the only purpose of having a key skill for no-check rituals that they determine the type of components you use for it, if your DM doesn't just let you burn GP directly (a very common houserule in my experience)?

 

[mach1.9pants]

A square is 5' as per the "Visualizing the Action" sidebar on page 266 of the PHB.

Strictly speaking, it's actually more of a 5' cube, and the discrepancy between character height and square height is simply a result of the abstraction that's required in standardizing a three-dimensional grid. A 6' human is still Medium, and so is a 4' dwarf; most demonstrative is the Goliaths from the PHB2, who can be as tall as 7'8", and yet are still Medium. (Their original creation came from an offhanded comment from a 3rd edition developer that basketball players, despite being hugely tall, were still technically Medium creatures.)

If it helps, think of a race's size classification as being more of a function of volume than of height. A halfling can, by the PHB heights, be an inch shorter than a dwarf, but they're not medium because 4'3" is some kind of abstract minimum height; dwarves are Medium because they're stocky. (This is why they have a movement speed of 5 squares instead of 6, incidentally.)

Mmm I don't see anything that relates to the 1 square is actually 1 cube on that page just a bit saying that a mini is about 32mm high.. There are no rules I have found that describe a cube, or anything useful for vertical extent. Even in the DMG it says (under aerial combat) you can move up and down at no additional cost, but it does not say move up and down cubes, just up and down. All references to height that I can find (athletics, flying, etc) only refer to vertical height not any vertical squares or cubes apart from 'altitude limit' which is given in squares off the ground (DMG 48).

I'd love to see this cleared up, as We are going into paragon and flying is going to start happening soon!

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

All movement is expressed in units of squares; thus, altitude is measured in squares.

Movement is never taken in fractions of a square.

Thus, all creatures are always in vertical strata of one-square (i.e. 5') increments.

(Incidentally, the ability of creatures to ascend or descend diagonally isn't really a rule in itself, but a natural result of the new grid movement applied to a grid system - you can move as many squares on one axis as you do on another, and this works the same if your second axis is a Y or a Z axis. Strictly speaking, you shouldn't be able to ascend or descend more than your speed in a round, but it would be so incredibly rare that a creature would need to do so that to include a note as such would result in rules clutter.)

As far as how much vertical space creatures take up, it's not really ever addressed, but it's also something that would virtually never actually matter. It's simplest to assume that a creature takes up as many vertical spaces as they do horizontal spaces, simply for the sake of convention and simplicity; people aren't going to be two squares tall, and dragons aren't going to be one square tall. That's how it worked in 3.5 when they fixed all the nonstandard sizes of 3.0, and the size rules haven't otherwise changed much since then, so I can't see any reason why one should assume height is any different.