Hand of Radiance too powerful?

[Flipguarder]

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If your DM has a problem with it, point out that it's just like any other specialisation. You're focusing on one ability to make it really good, which means you're not going to be as versatile in other areas. Fighters have been focusing their abilities on one weapon for multiple editions, don't see why casters can't get the same love.

It took me entirely too long to realize I was the DM mentioned in this thread. I enjoy that immensely.

My initial... Well, I wouldn't say problem, but possible.... let's call them "Stenanks" with this build is I feel encounters and dailies overall should be resources. To say that this is specialization helps, but it doesn't take away from the fact that specialization should really go only so far. For instance, My warden shouldn't "specialize" in having tons of healing surges, and at epic level have unlimited of them. There are already some class at-wills that are strictly just better than your encounters at level 21, and I have said myself this sort of makes sense, considering you only upgrade your at-wills once in their total life time. But I really don't like the idea of going out of one's way to aggravate that situation by trying to beef up an at-will to make your encounter powers situational. I believe that, generally, your encounters should be a resource compared to your at-wills, not a situational bonus.
The reason I am afraid this at-will might become more powerful at higher levels (this character would be starting at level 21) is the higher level you are, the more beneficial crits are. This also occurs at a higher rate of growth then general power levels. This is why it scares me that this power CAN crit 3 times in a round, and WILL crit about 25-30% of the time (my math may be a bit off, but Im pretty sure thats a decent estimate.)

You slap some generic synergisitc items and feats (1d10 extra on a critical, etc) you start to create scenarios in which those cool crit triggered things happen much more often then they are "supposed to" (very few other builds create such a crit range in one attack).

I'm not saying I'll disallow it yet. It's not nearly as broken as many other things (that I just don't allow). But this is on the edge for me. All I'm saying is that these are my current issues.

At the end of the day, I'll probably allow it. But if he starts attaching more crit bonuses on top of it, I'll pull the plug in some way. Most likely by lobbing an army of wights at him...

 

[KarinsDad]

Let's compare this to Piercing Strike and Sneak Attack for a Rogue. Both target Reflex defense.

Shortsword: D6 + 2D6 + Dex + Magic = 14.5 points of damage at first level with an 18 Dex. Multiply the 14.5 * 13/10 = 18.85 to take into account the Short Sword weapon proficiency vs. Reflex.

Hand of Radiance: D4 + Wis + Magic per foe = 6.5 or 13 or 19.5 points of damage at first level with an 18 Wis.

Granted, the Rogue can up his average damage by 2 with a feat, but straight up, the Hand of Radiance out strikes the striker damage in any encounter which is not a solo encounter until extremely late in the encounter.

And, it is an extremely powerful and useful anti-minion power.

And it has a range of 10.

And it does radiant damage.

And it increases damage by 3 each time Wisdom or Magic goes up by one whereas the Rogue increases damage by 1 in those cases.

And it can be used twice in a round with an Action Point, the Rogue Sneak Attack damage cannot.

I personally don't think the power is "balanced" as an At Will pre-adding feats to it, let alone after adding feats to it.

This would be a fine Encounter power, but it's too powerful and versatile as an At Will. It also might be fine if it targeted two foes as an At Will power. Still strong and versatile in that case, but not definitively stronger than the Rogue.

 

[keterys]

As an encounter power, it'd have a hell of a time comparing to Thunder of Judgment

 

[FrozenChrono]

Let's compare this to Piercing Strike and Sneak Attack for a Rogue. Both target Reflex defense.

Shortsword: D6 + 2D6 + Dex + Magic = 14.5 points of damage at first level with an 18 Dex. Multiply the 14.5 * 13/10 = 18.85 to take into account the Short Sword weapon proficiency vs. Reflex.

Hand of Radiance: D4 + Wis + Magic per foe = 6.5 or 13 or 19.5 points of damage at first level with an 18 Wis.

Granted, the Rogue can up his average damage by 2 with a feat, but straight up, the Hand of Radiance out strikes the striker damage in any encounter which is not a solo encounter until extremely late in the encounter.

And, it is an extremely powerful and useful anti-minion power.

And it has a range of 10.

And it does radiant damage.

And it increases damage by 3 each time Wisdom or Magic goes up by one whereas the Rogue increases damage by 1 in those cases.

And it can be used twice in a round with an Action Point, the Rogue Sneak Attack damage cannot.

I personally don't think the power is "balanced" as an At Will pre-adding feats to it, let alone after adding feats to it.

This would be a fine Encounter power, but it's too powerful and versatile as an At Will. It also might be fine if it targeted two foes as an At Will power. Still strong and versatile in that case, but not definitively stronger than the Rogue.

The thing is that you're not factoring in the fact that rogues will have a +5 (including combat advantage) to hit relative to Hand of radiance (which will almost never have CA). That's 33% more DPR than a 50% standard chance to hit for Hand of Radiance. Brutal Rogues will also have +2 or +3 to damage at level 1 and be getting +2 damage (str and dex) to one target every time Hand of Radiance goes up by +3 to 3 targets. I think a big part of the point of controllers is to be able to better than striker damage to multiple opponents when all added together so doing similar damage to one target relative to a striker vs. one target doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Rogue damage also increases a lot more with feats. They have weapon focus, d8's for sneak attack, a feat to get SA 2x in one round.

Hand of radiance is also much less useful against solo's, elites, and any enemies with resist variable.

I'm afraid I disagree with your estimation that it's an encounter level power.

However much damage Hand of Radiance does, it's just damage. Pick up encounter powers with status effects involved, and you'll most likely find yourself using them.

Yep, this is pretty much my plan. I love the encounter powers I have and plan on using them regularly.

 

[keterys]

Hand of radiance is also much less useful against solo's, elites, and any enemies with resist variable.

Resist variable doesn't work on radiant (or necrotic, psychic, etc - only acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, though this may be one of the most common mistakes - see MM glossary)

Comparing Hand of Radiance to Vanguard's Lightning, it is less effective against swarms, darkness, invisible, etc, will more reliably hit 1 target more _when 1 more target is possible_, does extra damage against vulnerable radiant (though, with pervasive light, so would all the invoker attacks in paragon), and will do less damage and be less effective against OAs when the situation is right for Vanguard's Lightning.

I would definitely give Hand of Radiance the edge over vanguard's lightning (or the other invoker at-wills), but I'd rate it lower than Twin Strike due to Twin Strike's increased versatility, single target damage potential, and range.

The odd thing for me is looking at Divine Bolts and comparing that to Hand of Radiance. I mean... I just don't see myself every choosing DB anymore.

 

[FrozenChrono]

Resist variable doesn't work on radiant (or necrotic, psychic, etc - only acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, though this may be one of the most common mistakes - see MM glossary)

Sweet, never noticed that.

Yea the fact that it's not a burst or blast makes a lot of conditions more difficult to deal with.

 

[KarinsDad]

The thing is that you're not factoring in the fact that rogues will have a +5 (including combat advantage) to hit relative to Hand of radiance (which will almost never have CA). That's 33% more DPR than a 50% standard chance to hit for Hand of Radiance. Brutal Rogues will also have +2 or +3 to damage at level 1 and be getting +2 damage (str and dex) to one target every time Hand of Radiance goes up by +3 to 3 targets. I think a big part of the point of controllers is to be able to better than striker damage to multiple opponents when all added together so doing similar damage to one target relative to a striker vs. one target doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Rogue damage also increases a lot more with feats. They have weapon focus, d8's for sneak attack, a feat to get SA 2x in one round.

Hand of radiance is also much less useful against solo's, elites, and any enemies with resist variable.

I'm afraid I disagree with your estimation that it's an encounter level power.

Actually, I did take into account the +3 of weapon proficiency, just not the +2 of Combat Advantage.

However, a lot of Combat Advantage in 4E is NOT flank. It is due to a power. So if the Rogue gets Combat Advantage, it is also likely that the Invoker would also have Combat Advantage against at least one opponent and the Invoker is still doing this at range whereas the Rogue is typically doing it in melee.


But compare Hand of Radiance to Scorching Burst.

Hand of Radiance Advantages:

1) It can selectively target foes. Scorching Burst can hit allies, hence, it is extremely limited in application. I played a Wizard with Scorching Burst for 7 levels, so I know this from game experience. There are just too few times where one can get more than 1 or 2 foes in a burst, or sometimes any foes in cases where melee foes are against walls or other barriers.

2) It is radiant damage. Compared to Fire damage for which very few foes are vulnerable, nearly all undead are vulnerable to radiant. And, the player knowing that an undead foe is vulnerable to radiant is a no brainer compared to knowing that a foe is vulnerable to fire.

3) It can target 3 targets anywhere within range 10 on the board, not just in a burst 1 area.

4) At level 21, it increases to a 4th opponent which until the mid-point of any non-solo encounter, means that it averages more damage at level 21 (4 * 1D4+Wis+Magic > a typical 1 to 3 * 2D6+Int+Magic).

Hand of Radiance Disadvantages:

1) It does one average point less damage per target.

2) It cannot be used against 4 or more targets (a rare occurance anyway).


This is head and shoulders above the best Wizard multi-target damage dealing At Will spell.


Compare Hand of Radiance to the Sorcerer At Will power Blazing Starfall. A Sorcerer is supposed to be a Striker (i.e. do more damage), but is limited to a Burst 1. So on average, Hand of Radiance will typically average more damage than Blazing Starfall, even with the fact that Blazing Starfall does a few more points of damage if the target moves out of the zone.


Compare Hand of Radiance to the first level Encounter power Force Orb. Due to the difficulty in getting multiple foes to just stand next to each other, Hand of Radiance typically averages more damage per use than Force Orb does. Force Orb with two foes standing next to the primary target = 50% (chance to hit) * (2D8 + Int + Magic + 50% * D10 + Int + Magic + 50% * D10 + Int + Magic) = 10 + Int + Magic vs. 50% * (D4 + Wis + Magic + D4 + Wis + Magic + D4 + Wis + Magic) = 3.75 + 1.5 Wis + 1.5 Magic.

At level 1, Hand of Radiance only averages 9.75 (against non-undead, 17.25 against most undead) versus Force Orb's 14 (assuming the PC can find a situation with 2 foes standing exactly next to the primary target which again as a player, this was rare for my Wizard). Getting 2 side by side is not that hard, getting 3 or more, much more so. If the PC can only target 2 PCs with Force Orb (which is a more typical scenario), it drops to 9.33.

The restriction of having to target foes in a small area as opposed to anywhere within 10 on the board is huge. It just allows for multi-foe damage every round as opposed to on just some rounds when the situation warrants it.


Now, compare Hand of Radiance to Divine Bolts. 3 D4+ radiant attacks vs. 2 D6+ lightning attacks. Everything else is the same. Again, no comparison. Hand of Radiance is just too potent and versatile.


Sorry that you want to play the power and I think it is too potent as an At Will, but that is how it goes. As your DM, I would tell you to pick Divine Bolts and forget about the stupidly suped up power from Divine Power.

That is the generic problem with the splat books. WotC keeps adding bigger, better, badder to them. There is a definitive PC power surge every time a splat book comes out. Not just a versatility surge between feats and powers, but a definitive increase in individual powers and class features.

 

[keterys]

You really, really can't compare spread out damage to singular damage like that. Comparisons like that will tell you odd things like Freezing Cloud is a better daily than Cascade of Blades, for instance.

Similarly, trying to compare the sorcerer's area effect radiance to the sorcerer's isn't very productive. The striker has a different type of controller power than the controller that isn't as helpful in some situations, but is more helpful than others, but would totally average to less damage if we assume he didn't get striker bonuses and the creatures didn't leave the area.

Err, wot?

All that said, I still agree that Hand of Radiance is one of the top 5 at-wills in the game, easily, and would cheerfully pick another if the DM didn't like it. I'm not sure I'd have blinked or minded if the same power was Force and was called 'Magic Missile' either, though.

 

[Flipguarder]

You really, really can't compare spread out damage to singular damage like that. Comparisons like that will tell you odd things like Freezing Cloud is a better daily than Cascade of Blades, for instance.

Similarly, trying to compare the sorcerer's area effect radiance to the sorcerer's isn't very productive. The striker has a different type of controller power than the controller that isn't as helpful in some situations, but is more helpful than others, but would totally average to less damage if we assume he didn't get striker bonuses and the creatures didn't leave the area.

Err, wot?

All that said, I still agree that Hand of Radiance is one of the top 5 at-wills in the game, easily. I'm not sure I'd have blinked or minded if the same power was Force and was called 'Magic Missile' though.

Having looked at divine bolts (a power that I actually like in it's effectiveness level) I am fairly sure I have a problem with this build. I'm definitely going to look at a nerf for Hand of radiance in some way or another. i'll post some nerf options at some point today. Ideas for small nerfs would be greatly appreciated.

 

[keterys]

Well, the easiest one is to just use make it two targets instead of three. Or nerf it into the ground when it's used on three targets - for example, it could do static Wis modifier damage in that instance.