Handle Animal and training warhorses

[Tiberius]

Hi, everyone!

I currently have a paladin in my game who took a fair number of ranks in Handle Animal, and is currently planning to train the party's heavy horses to be heavy warhorses. This won't work to begin with for this batch, as he has taken a break in the training to go adventuring, but I am sure he will try again with a different set. It would appear from the description that heavy warhorses are both trained and bred, so I am disinclined to allow him to do this in the future, but does anyone know of any written rules from a WotC book that addresses this point? Thanks!

-Tiberius

 

[kengar]

"are trained and bred for strength and aggression." from the MM would be enough justification for me.

What you might want to let him do is buy UN-trained warhorses and train them himself; possibly getting a break on the price or be able to customize their "tricks."

 

[Conaill]

So, he's trying to turn plow horses into warhorses?

Nice trick!

 

[Tiberius]

I thought so too.

-Tiberius

 

[kengar]

I thought so too, but my play group is a pretty rules lawyer-heavy environment, so we like having rules. I think his thought is that if they can be ridden, then they can be trained to fight.

-Tiberius

The answer to that is a simple "No."

again, "...and bred for strength and aggression."

He could -theoretically- use conditioning to maximize the aggressive tendencies of a horse, but that would NOT be the same thing as a warhorse (NTM, that it would probably require something close to animal abuse on the part of the paladin, but that's a different question/issue).

Take some modern examples:

1) Racehorses. Thoroughbreds are NOT the same thing as a stable horse the people take on trail rides. They have been bred for generations to have a competitive streak a mile wide. They are high-strung and require expert handling on & off the track.

2) Hunting dogs. Sight hounds and pointers (i.e. Greyhounds and German Shorthair Pointers) are used for certain kinds of hunting, Retrievers (Labs, Goldens, Chessies) for another, Scent hounds (Beagles & Bassets) for yet another.

While there are more distinct differences in size & build between dog breeds than there are between types of horses, the instincts bred into the dogs are the major factor here. A greyhound has a better sense of smell than you, but you will be fighting an uphill battle the whole way if you want to train it to track game like a basset hound.

One other point on the subject of warhorses. One thing they do is trample opponents. This goes against a normal horse's instincts. The LAST thing most horses want to do is step on something that isn't the ground. In steeplechase racing, when a jockey falls, his best bet is to curl up and hold still. He (or she) lets the horses do the work in avoiding him as they thunder past. Warhorses have had that bred out of them (or at least reduced as their aggression is maximized).

EDIT: You changed your post while I typing! No fair!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

He is likely to fail for reasons of breeding. But I would give him a shot at turning a heavy plowhorse into a warhorse.

Given the large time investment, that is not the wise route to go. Better to start with young real warhorses priced at a discount and teach them some cool tricks.

 

[Conaill]

Here's a compromise:

In no way will he be able to change the horse's stats, because those are mainly determined by breeding. It will still be a normal Heavy Horse, with 3 HD, two 1d6+2 hoof attacks at +3, etc.

However, he may be able to train the horse to fight while carrying a rider, and to not need a "control mount in battle" ride check, same as a war horse. I think that would fall under "Teach an animal unusual tasks": Handle Animal DC 20, takes 2 months.

Of course, he'll still wind up with a sub-par warhorse after that...

 

[Stalker0]

Consider the loooong time you need to use handle animal, give him SOMETHING!! something man!!!

 

[Tiberius]

Alright, thank you all for your advice. I think I will allow him to end up with a sub-par warhorse, as a convincing case was made IMO and I don't want to nerf his skill unreasonably. He'll just need to try it with a different band of creatures, as he's blown his chance with these.

-Tiberius

 

[Conaill]

Not to mention the fact that it will still look like a plow/drafthorse, which could cause quite a bit of ridicule if they ever meet a knight or paladin on a real warhorse!