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Handling and Adjucating on the fly

Dwimmerlied

First Post
One of the players in our game, a new player who doesn't know the rules, is always trying out unconventional actions in combat with her Halfling rogue. I'm not the DM in this game, but the DM often looks to me for rules advice. The player in question's actions are informed by visions of swashbuckling action and include stuff like jumping into barrels for safety and slamming doors into enemy faces. Jumping onto the shoulders of large creatures and stabbing with her shortsword is a favourite. Personally I think this stuff is awesome, she has a great imagination, and to have one player who doesn't simply move to adjacent square and attack with sword really adds to the game. Its hard work tho! You need to not only have a mastery of the rules, but you need to be able to remember them at the right time.
Does anyone else have characters that like to pull off crazy stuff? What's the craziest stuff you or your friends have attempted? How do you as DMs handle these things?
 
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Ranes

Adventurer
That's great. I've been fortunate enough to have players who bring the same kind of imagination to the table. I'm fairly familiar with the rules but I've almost always made ad-hoc adjudications for situations like these. Slamming a door in someone's face? If it's your turn and they're in the right place, I might give them a reflex save. Jump into a barrel? Okay, done. Jumping onto a large creature's shoulders is trickier to adjudicate though. It's the kind of action that could have a significant impact on the outcome of a fight and might be attempted repeatedly. Careful ruling is required but it's still okay to start off ad-hoc and work towards a consistent resolution method.

As for crazy things players try, there was the necromancer once tried defending herself by hurling the bits of previously defeated foe she'd been collecting at her assailant, after running out of spells and wand charges.
 

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
This sounds really cool and fun, If the DM can either handwave or come up with dice rolls fast enough to figure the mechanics.

How I'd do this as a DM:

-Want to swing a door into the opponent's face? Cool, have the player roll an attack with a -4 for improvised weapon, have the opponent roll a Reflex save vs the attack or take 1d4 damage and the stunned condition for 1 round.

-To jump onto a Large creature's shoulders in combat, I'd do a DC 15 Jump check, than a DC 15 balance check. Failing either check results in the PC falling off, than I'd have a DC 15 tumble check or fall prone for that round. If the player has built a jumping, balancing character mechanically into the skill stats, such things should be rewarded.
Assuming the jump and balance check succeed, I'd provide a +2 to the attack as well as make the enemy flat-footed. I might throw in an extra 1d6 damage as a reward for being daring.

This is what I pulled together on the fly, and as an experienced DM I could do this in game without slowing things down too much. If your DM can make things up like this, then cool. If not, either come up with a simpler system of checks and rewards, or thank the PC for creative roleplaying descriptions, but keep the mechanics the same.

My buddy and I decided we needed to become more familiar with all the combat mechanic maneuvers like tripping, grappling, bull rushing, sundering, disarming, etc. We rolled up 2 low level PCs and agreed to combat on the deck of a ship on the open sea. The rule was every round had to include a skill check or a combat maneuver. What resulted was the most hilarious, messy and awkward looking combat I've ever played. The PCs ended up all over the ship, ropes got thrown, barrels got overturned, nets were dropped, NPCs were knocked overboard by failed attempts by flailing PCs. It was awesome, and really, really long.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
Be careful of penalising improvised actions too much - a -4 penalty to hit or multiple successes needed to make one attack can quickly makes improvised actions suboptimal compared to just hitting a monster normally. Which discourages such improvisation in future, and leads to a lot of players avoiding improvised actions like the plague.

Clear communication and creating mutually acceptable and achievable expectations are very important here.
Super-effective improvised attacks such as actual or virtual one shot kills, if allowed at all, probably call for a much lowered chance of success. But getting just some extra damage or minor special effect shouldn't be penalised.

Some referees just make most improvised actions suboptimal, others make them very effective. Figuring this out can be difficult, especially for the math-challenged.

One other thing to look out for is that some players don't mind being suboptimal or even a penalty weight in their group so long as they can attempt ludicrous actions, while others will resent other PCs being suboptimal and endangering themselves and the rest of the PCs in the group by their crazy actions. This isn't a matter of right or wrong, just different tastes and expectations - madcap players and success-focused players may not be a good match for each other.
 

As a DM: If it's awesome, sure go for it! I'll try and figure out something on the fly and go from there. There are times when the rulebooks should be a jumping off point.

As a Player: It's been hit or miss. The last thing I tried was to leap out of a window onto the back of a large creature (a big monster, not size category) from a window above it. I wanted to ride around on it's back and hack at it from above. The DM shot it down. However, another time, in a different group, we were being chased through a baddies mansion. In the greenhouse I used magic to shatter all of the window panes. When the guards came in after us, I used gust of wind to blow all the shards of glass at them. It didn't flay them to ribbons but it was still awesome. :)
 

Dwimmerlied

First Post
I like the suggestions, guys; cheers. I've been thinking along the same lines. In retrsopect, Maybe a jump check (DC10+ target's dex). This check is equivalent to a grab check, and is immediately followed by a hold check (the attacker can use an escape artist check instead). Failing has the risk of ending up prone at the target's feet; not a good situation, but if successful, they can make a climb check on their next turn to get themselves in place, and they can attack as if their target were prone (but not helpless). The enemy will repeatedly attempt grapples, and if successful, might end up tossing the character (so the cool swashbuckling action is not lost).

Anyway, I guess there are several ways it could be legitimately pulled off; just applying something consistent and believable will be fine. I agree that its a fine line, though; If its too difficult, the character isn't rewarded and their creativity is trumped, and also risks becoming a liability in a heavily tactics-based game (I'd really like to believe that the two elements are easily reconcilable!). If it's too trivial it will become too easy, but also cheapen the rules system with arbitrary mish-mash rulings.

I remember years ago, playing when 3.0 first came out and we bought the basic set? or basic game? it came with some adventures my gf at the time was running;- my characters were having a hard time against some hobgoblins. Several had already fallen, and my fighter, desperate at the proposition of the hobgobs running in to attack resorted to some swashbuckling improv of his own, attempting to slam the door in their faces. I think I dealt 1d4 subdual damage before said hobgoblin opened the door and split my poor character's skull... :D
 

Avari Craven

First Post
I recently made a exemplar, I think it was a scout(2) rogue(2) exemplar(eventually) . Her name was Amelia(human), and she was from the circus....

ooohohoho it was funnnnn. haha every round I would describe what she would do first and then attempt to do it. My first item purchased was the belt of ultimate athleticism. There were no walls or cielings or ledges; there were only vault points.

For Instance: (before belt of ultimate athleticism)
me: Amelia charges running sideways on the wall vault off the wall, to land on the ceiling, following that with a dive bomb attack at the (monsters) head.

Dm: alright i need a jump balance for the wall run, followed by a jump annnnnd lets tumble since you are bouncing off the cieling and its not exactly a jump.

Me: alright i rolled a 21 a 19, then i rolled another 16 followed by a 15.

Dm: your tumble is a little shoddy but you manage to pull it off because of your training. Attack roll! add +2 for being essentially out of thier sight(since they cant look up without provoking an attack of opportunity from the fighter); add another +2 for the unconventional charge; and add... (rolls a d6) 3! dmg to the attack for essentially falling on him with a weapon.

Me: sweet i got a total of a 19 on the to hit(which hits) dealing (shortsword) 1d6 + 1 d6 sneak + 1 d6 skirmish + 1 str and of course the 3 dmg given from the dm for being creative. (awesome dm!)

Dm: wow thats 13 dmg! tumble check!

Me: 25!
I cartwheel away if thats possible?

Dm: you rolled high enough, you successfully transition the movement to roll through the enemy and end up 10 ft away, but he does get an attack of opportunity. (he missed because of alot of negatives.)

there that was one round. and every round of combat Amelia would move giving her skirmisher and surprise by attacking at crazy angles. One of my favorite characters ever.
 

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
I recently made a exemplar, I think it was a scout(2) rogue(2) exemplar(eventually) . Her name was Amelia(human), and she was from the circus....

ooohohoho it was funnnnn. haha every round I would describe what she would do first and then attempt to do it. My first item purchased was the belt of ultimate athleticism. There were no walls or cielings or ledges; there were only vault points.

For Instance: (before belt of ultimate athleticism)
me: Amelia charges running sideways on the wall vault off the wall, to land on the ceiling, following that with a dive bomb attack at the (monsters) head.

Dm: alright i need a jump balance for the wall run, followed by a jump annnnnd lets tumble since you are bouncing off the cieling and its not exactly a jump.

Me: alright i rolled a 21 a 19, then i rolled another 16 followed by a 15.

Dm: your tumble is a little shoddy but you manage to pull it off because of your training. Attack roll! add +2 for being essentially out of thier sight(since they cant look up without provoking an attack of opportunity from the fighter); add another +2 for the unconventional charge; and add... (rolls a d6) 3! dmg to the attack for essentially falling on him with a weapon.

Me: sweet i got a total of a 19 on the to hit(which hits) dealing (shortsword) 1d6 + 1 d6 sneak + 1 d6 skirmish + 1 str and of course the 3 dmg given from the dm for being creative. (awesome dm!)

Dm: wow thats 13 dmg! tumble check!

Me: 25!
I cartwheel away if thats possible?

Dm: you rolled high enough, you successfully transition the movement to roll through the enemy and end up 10 ft away, but he does get an attack of opportunity. (he missed because of alot of negatives.)

there that was one round. and every round of combat Amelia would move giving her skirmisher and surprise by attacking at crazy angles. One of my favorite characters ever.
This sort of thing works well if it can be done smoothly and fast. Otherwise it gets boggled down in all the steps and dice rolling. This is strictly an area that the DM has to be comfortable with.
 

Celebrim

Legend
One of the players in our game, a new player who doesn't know the rules, is always trying out unconventional actions in combat with her Halfling rogue. I'm not the DM in this game, but the DM often looks to me for rules advice. The player in question's actions are informed by visions of swashbuckling action and include stuff like jumping into barrels for safety and slamming doors into enemy faces. Jumping onto the shoulders of large creatures and stabbing with her shortsword is a favourite. Personally I think this stuff is awesome, she has a great imagination, and to have one player who doesn't simply move to adjacent square and attack with sword really adds to the game. Its hard work tho! You need to not only have a mastery of the rules, but you need to be able to remember them at the right time.

Cinematic color to combat is a very important part of good roleplaying. When players interact with the environment creatively and are sufficiently immersed that they can imagine the environment, that's a good thing.

There are some potential drawbacks:

a) If the stunts become routine, they stop adding a lot of value. You want to avoid having a situation where the player does the same thing over and over again.
b) If the stunts become too zany, they can detract from the atmosphere of the game as much as they add to it. If you aren't going for slap stick comedy, there is a level of 'over the top' that is too far over the top.
c) The player can become stuck either with the impression that no stunt is ever worth it because the DM/system crushes creativity, or else they are always worth it because no matter how hare brained the idea the DM will reward it.

Does anyone else have characters that like to pull off crazy stuff? What's the craziest stuff you or your friends have attempted? How do you as DMs handle these things?

Yeah, I've had those players before.

As a DM, I have a standard bag of tricks for adjudicating things.

The simplest way to ad hoc rule is simply along the lines of, "OK, if you can make a DC X appropriate skill check, you get a +n circumstance bonus to your attack/damage/AC."

The next thing is to translate an creative action into a defined combat maneuver or stance, or in some cases a series of them. For example, is the character effectively fighting defensively in describing the action? I might decide that 'Duck inside a barrel' or 'Slam door on foe', constitutes 'Fighting defensively + a skill check for a small circumstance bonus'. Kicking a chair into a foe might be treated as a 'Trip Attack' with an improvised range weapon - not likely to work maybe, but also you aren't drawing an AoO.

To provide for that, I have a variety of actions I've defined in the rules that are pretty common PC narration. One of them is the opposite of 'Fighting Defensively', 'Fighting offensively', which is typically used whenever the players describe themselves acting in a particularly rash manner. It might be a quite successful attack, but it leaves them wide open to a counter attack or attack of opportunity. So, leaping down off a balcony and trying to drive your sword into an opponent might be resolved as "Charge + Fighting Offensively + a +1 circumstance bonus to attack from attacking from above + Jump check vs DC 10 to gain +1 circumstance bonus to damage." Putting that all together quickly produces a simple set of modifiers to the attack roll along with some fun color without being unbalancing. Leap down far enough, and I might add damage from impact to both the target and jumper, but I'd probably also increase the DC.

One thing you mention that I found occurred a lot was players wanting to climb or mount a large creature and stab it in the back/head/neck. The rules want to treat this as a grapple, but it doesn't really work either mechanically or by intention. A player doing that isn't trying to control the enemies limbs and pin them motionless; he's trying to get inside the enemies guard and attack them in a way that they are relatively defenseless. A mosquito that lands on you isn't 'grappling' you. Something else is going on entirely. This has been generalized to a maneuver called 'Clinch' which is the counterpart of a grapple. In a clinch, the smaller creature is favored over the larger one, though of course, the smaller creature is in danger if the larger one can convert the clinch to a grapple, and the larger creature can perform a thrashing action to crush the pest, and there are several other hazards as well. However, it provides a standardized way to handle something that is a staple of fantasy and player's stunts.

Just off the top of my head, recently in my campaign I've had characters: bull rush zombies off pits, lasso skeletons and drag them into pits, leap on to and over tables to attack, jump down off of roofs to deliver flying charge attacks, burst through roofs by casting enlarge self, somersault between an enemies legs to attack from the rear, shield rush ghouls to prevent them from performing coup de grace attacks, shield fallen friends with their own bodies, lock blades with an undead warrior in order to spin it around and shove it between other party members, and a bunch of other stuff. It's all a blur really for me at this point. I distinctly remember a player pulling of a three skill trick combo, where another player said, "If this works, it's going to be awesome.", and I remember it worked, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was. And the Sidhe rogue has gotten to the point where he can pretty much bounce around spinning like Yoga in the prequels during combat, and pull off pretty much anything he can imagine. But that's not even really creative at this point, it's just the rules.
 

Dwimmerlied

First Post
I recently made a exemplar, I think it was a scout(2) rogue(2) exemplar(eventually) . Her name was Amelia(human), and she was from the circus....

ooohohoho it was funnnnn. haha every round I would describe what she would do first and then attempt to do it. My first item purchased was the belt of ultimate athleticism. There were no walls or cielings or ledges; there were only vault points.

For Instance: (before belt of ultimate athleticism)
me: Amelia charges running sideways on the wall vault off the wall, to land on the ceiling, following that with a dive bomb attack at the (monsters) head.

Dm: alright i need a jump balance for the wall run, followed by a jump annnnnd lets tumble since you are bouncing off the cieling and its not exactly a jump.

Me: alright i rolled a 21 a 19, then i rolled another 16 followed by a 15.

Dm: your tumble is a little shoddy but you manage to pull it off because of your training. Attack roll! add +2 for being essentially out of thier sight(since they cant look up without provoking an attack of opportunity from the fighter); add another +2 for the unconventional charge; and add... (rolls a d6) 3! dmg to the attack for essentially falling on him with a weapon.

Me: sweet i got a total of a 19 on the to hit(which hits) dealing (shortsword) 1d6 + 1 d6 sneak + 1 d6 skirmish + 1 str and of course the 3 dmg given from the dm for being creative. (awesome dm!)

Dm: wow thats 13 dmg! tumble check!

Me: 25!
I cartwheel away if thats possible?

Dm: you rolled high enough, you successfully transition the movement to roll through the enemy and end up 10 ft away, but he does get an attack of opportunity. (he missed because of alot of negatives.)

there that was one round. and every round of combat Amelia would move giving her skirmisher and surprise by attacking at crazy angles. One of my favorite characters ever.

Awesome. Sounds like you are getting a lot of mileage out of your character. And from my perspective, your DM's doing a great job. Also, welcome to the boards.
 

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