Harassment in gaming

Hussar

Legend
Focusing on just this part of the post.

A FLGS which conducts public events has a responsibility to handle the public. Heck, any business which has the public in through the day has to handle the public. The ability is a job requirement. And especially, say, is a store has a game room.

A few hundred people is a large enough size that having a plan to manage order is necessary. There will be folks at the entrance, and I would expect the local police have been informed about the gathering and check in now and again. The folks who run the facility would probably themselves have a couple of guards on hand. I can't imagine a proprietor renting out the facility without requiring a security plan.

In either case, I would expect a policy and a plan for managing disturbances.

Thx!
TomB

I highly, highly doubt you have hired security for small con's. Sure, you probably have someone at the door taking tickets, but, beyond that, not much if anything at all. We're talking a con run at a hotel convention room - that sort of thing. So, no video surveillance, probably little or no security beyond the people running the convention itself. Would you expect local police to check in at every convention held at a hotel? I certainly wouldn't. And how many hotels have hired security? Maybe a guy in the back watching cameras, if that.

A couple of hundred people isn't exactly a big gathering. Heck, that's a wedding reception. Would you expect police presence and security guards at a wedding reception? Have you ever seen them? ((Ok, maybe police, but, that's usually after a call to the police.))

-----------

And, again, sure, it sucks to be singled out by the management after a complaint. But, let's keep this in context. Person makes a complaint saying Bloggins is making inappropriate comments. It's the only complaint about Bloggins. And the person making the complaint doesn't really specifically state what Bloggins said. Is the management going to eject Bloggins? No, of course not. Maybe first they hang out around Bloggins for a few minutes to see if he says anything, then they simply inform him (quietly) that there has been a complaint and could he please watch what he says.

How is this a problem?

If the complaint is bogus, then there won't be any other complaints and, well, the problem goes away. If the complaint is real and Bloggins stops, then success! We stopped the harassment. If the complaint is real and then other complaints come in, well, then we take further action. But, at no point should your first question be, "Well, did he harass you enough that I should take action?" Which is precisely what questioning the complaining person is doing. I most certainly don't want some person trying to determine, in the chaos of a Convention whether or not he should have a quiet word with that dude that's telling dead baby jokes. Just do it. Go, have a word, err on the side of caution. If someone has actually, in person, taken the time to make a complaint, odds are, they are not targeting some random dude at a convention for the fun of it.

Is it possible that a complaint might be fabricated? Yup, it's possible. But, what's more likely? That some woman, completely at random, singles out some dude for a harassment complaint at a gaming convention, or that some dude actually did say something inappropriate? "Oh, well, all he's doing is telling dead baby jokes, just avoid him, he does that" is the wrong answer.
 

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dd.stevenson

Super KY
I've only read the first two pages, but let me ask what I hope is a pertinent question: is this a RPG thing or a male thing? Could you replace 'roleplaying' with any other male-dominated activity - for example 'football' - and get the same activities and issues?

Roleplaying only has one unique form of harassment that I'm aware of, that being pervy DMs specifically targeting the characters of female players for gratuitous, detailed in-game sexual assaults. Rather damningly, this is one of the major complaints that we've heard repeated over and over.

Security personnel quality is HIGHLY variable. So no, they're not necessarily going to be the best people to handle the situation. But that IS the job..

When it comes to the kinds of harassment specific to our hobby, I don't think you're going to get a lot of value out of this attitude--though admittedly you seem prepared for that possibility.

But I do have an alternative for con-goers to consider: focus your efforts on getting the event and convention organizers on board, and on improving communication with (and between) these people. These are the people who are equipped to investigate in-play harassment, the people who are equipped to compile and share a list of known harassers, the people who security will heed when it comes time to boot the nincompoops out into the dark.

Again, I don't go to cons so my role in this fight is pretty limited; but I cringe when I imagine event security being tasked with sorting out our hobby's problems.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I'll specifically state that so there is no confusion. People, not women, not minorities, people. In fact, from what I've seen the biggest abusers of "Harassment!" come from men characterizing anyone who disagrees with a woman as "Harassment" so that they can then white knight them.

I'll also point out, as someone who spent 15 years working in a female dominated field, harassment and sexual harassment are far from the sole domain of men. I'll also definitively state from past experiences, if you're male in a female dominated field you are screwed. No one is going to stop it, or even listen to you about it, or if they do they're going to blame you for it because you're male. Least of all the political activists.

To be very blunt, anyone who enters this conversation thinking it's about women have no idea what harassment really is. Harassment is something that happens to *people*.

It is certainly true that harassment, even sexual harassment, is perpetrated by and upon members of both genders. I don't think that anyone could reasonably claim otherwise. However, it is a reality that men are generally much more likely to be the harassers than women are, and women are generally much more likely to be the targets/victims of harassment than men are.

Also, if we go with the assumption that harassment is typically perpetrated by the majority members of a group (as you suggested was the case when you mentioned harassment in a female-dominated field), gaming is still dominated largely by men, and that makes harassment in gaming far more likely to be male against female in nature.

Therefore, while I agree with those who say that anti-harassment policies should really be applied to both genders (because they should be applied to everyone) I think that failing to realize or accept that most harassment is male against female in nature, particularly in male-dominated arenas like gaming, is either ignorance or willful blindness, and neither of those are conducive to crafting and implementing solid anti-harassment policies.
 

Hussar

Legend
I do have to admit some bafflement at the push back this seems to be getting. We as a community have always rather prided ourselves on being a warm, welcoming community. Doesn't matter what you are in real life, we're here to game and pretend to be elves. Fantastic. One big, welcoming community.

Only we aren't. We're not welcoming. We're an extremely closed community. The numbers are pretty damning. Overwhelmingly white male. To the point where everyone else is pretty much a rounding error. And we all know this. This isn't a secret. This isn't something buried in the history books. We know this, right now, today. Gaming is, and always has been, a very insular hobby.

And that needs to change. Which means that steps have to be taken to remove those things that make our hobby insular. And harassment of women is a big one. No one should ever have to put up with the crap that we've seen in this thread and others. That's ballocks. Does anyone actually think that this sort of thing is acceptable? Or that it isn't a problem? I sure don't.

So, we need to have strong policies in place to protect those who have been routinely, habitually, and frequently attacked by our "big welcoming community". And all the worries about misunderstandings or people abusing the system really don't help anything. Nothing we will do will ever be foolproof. If we could do that, we'd be a lot more famous than we are. Nothing is 100%. But, I know one thing, what we're doing now isn't working and hasn't been working for forty years. So, sure, we might "silence 3e fans" by using harassment policies. But, y'know what? That's a risk that has to be taken. Because, embarrassing Bloggins by having a quiet word with him about a complaint over a misunderstanding is ten thousand times preferable to having some women be driven from the community.
 

Springheel

First Post
Person makes a complaint saying Bloggins is making inappropriate comments.

Who gets to determine what is "inappropriate"?

That's the problem. Without getting more information, you have no idea whether Bloggins said something worthy of sanction or not.


then they simply inform him (quietly) that there has been a complaint and could he please watch what he says.

How is this a problem?

Because they have no way of knowing whether he actually NEEDS to "watch what he says". It's also a problem because Bloggins may have absolutely no idea what he said that was inappropriate. It's also possible that 99% of the people around him didn't find what he was saying inappropriate. What does "watch what you say" mean in that context?

If the policy of the convention is to avoid saying anything, to anyone, that any other person could possibly object to, the only sure way to accomplish that is to say nothing at all.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
A few hundred people is a large enough size that having a plan to manage order is necessary. There will be folks at the entrance, and I would expect the local police have been informed about the gathering and check in now and again.

I worked security at my local live-action game convention this year. The con has, for years, been a couple hundred people. It only just reached over 350 attendees, and the con runners only just decided to have its own security staff.

There is *nobody* at the door. If you are holding an event in a hotel, you can't put people at the door, because there will be hotel guests that aren't part of your event that also have to come and go. There are convention badges, and if you are caught playing a game without one, you'll be given a talking to and asked to go get your badge. But, if a non-attendee walked over to the vendors, and wanted to buy something, they'd be perfectly welcome to. I think a couple years ago, the vendors got some good sales off some girl's sports teams that were also staying at the hotel.

As Hussar said, 300 people is a large wedding, and probably doesn't call for increased security in most cases.

Heck, I also attend our local sci-fi convention, which is about 10 times the size of the gaming con above. Again, there's nobody at the door (for the same reason - we are using a large hotel's conference spaces, and other guests cannot be kept out of the building. There is convention security watching the doors of the Dealer's Room, the Art Show, and the Convention Suite, to see that folks who enter are convention attendees. The Art Show doesn't allow you to bring bags in, in case someone wants to try to pocket something.

But, you do *not* have security wandering around giving an eyeball to each of the gaming tables all the time.

The folks who run the facility would probably themselves have a couple of guards on hand.

I expect the larger hotel for the sci-fi convention has a rent-a-cop on hand. And yes, the police know what's going on. But there's no major presence at the gathering.

Oh, and the woman I spoke about upthread was molested *by a member of convention security staff*. So, yay for trusting security staff to handle harassment cases!

(The convention actually had a very clearly defined process for taking complaints (even against their own), where a security staffer (who was actually quite good and professional about it), walked through and asked questions and registered all the relevant information in forms, and it did get addressed after the convention.)

In either case, I would expect a policy and a plan for managing disturbances.

For the 300 person convention, not really. The plan in the past was, "tell one of the senior convention staff, who would make a judgement call, and/or call the cops if it is bad". I do know that one year one party at the live action convention got a bit loud, other hotel attendees complained, and the cops came in to deal with it - it took them 20 minutes to show up, or something. Now, that was for a noise complaint, but I don't think they'd have been hustling for a complaint that a woman had gotten groped, either.
 

Hussar

Legend
Did a quick Google search for harassment policies in Pathfinder society and saw this one from the Ontario Pathfinder Society:

OPS “Fair Play” Policy

The Ontario Pathfinder Society is a community organization that works to create an inclusive and dynamic gaming environment for all its members. To further this end, we have a zero tolerance policy in regards to sexual-harassment, sexism, racism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination or bigotry.

Occasionally a scenario may contain adult or mildly provocative themes, which are peripheral to the overall game and are in no way to be exploited by players or game masters to create an environment that causes discomfort among participants.

If at any point a community member feels uncomfortable with either the thematic elements of a game or the behavior of others at the table, it is encouraged that they express their concerns to the table GM, the store-coordinator, or a venture officer. Likewise, players should be mindful of how their words and actions affect others at the table, even if they personally do not think them to be offensive.

Player fun and safety are paramount to the Ontario Pathfinder Society. Following the above guidelines, and a little common courtesy will help ensure the continued safety, inclusivity, and overall success of the community.

link

Now, this seems pretty much on the ball. It is something that would need to be disseminated among members and brought to people's attention. But, it seems like it has a pretty good handle on things. Chain of complaint - GM, coordinator, venture officer. And a warning to others to be respectful.

So long as this is actually acted on, it seems like they have a decent handle on things.
 


sunshadow21

Explorer
Now, this seems pretty much on the ball. It is something that would need to be disseminated among members and brought to people's attention. But, it seems like it has a pretty good handle on things. Chain of complaint - GM, coordinator, venture officer. And a warning to others to be respectful.

So long as this is actually acted on, it seems like they have a decent handle on things.

And no mention of threatening to throw people, which was a rather large part of some of your earlier posts. That was my biggest problem with your earlier comments. Simply telling people to be respectful and mindful of those around them is a world away from some of your hypothetical situations that very consistently included the phrase, "or you will be asked to leave" or something similar. Formal warnings like that I would expect to primarily come from the venture officer and only after the lower level people have determined that someone that high in the chain of command needs to be made aware of the situation.

Your earlier statements made it sound very much like you assumed the first responders, like the GMs, could and should routinely be throwing around warnings about being kicked out before there was any justification for that level of warning or threat. I fully agree that the best way to handle it is for the GM first, and since they probably saw it happen, they don't need to answer further questions or get more information. If, however, it gets beyond the point where the GM or staff member saw it directly, the idea that the complaintant doesn't need to provide any more information or that simply talking the supposed offender is the best solutuion doesn't always work. At a game store, it's still probably not that hard; it's a small space and mostly familiar faces, so even if one of the store workers didn't see it directly, they were generally aware enough of what was going on enough that they could respond pretty quickly without needing further information, and the person that needs to be talked to probably hasn't moved very far.

Conventions are a lot harder in almost every regard. People move around a lot and the number of attendees quickly dwarves the available staff (whether they be volunteers running events, formal security, vendors, or the organizers keeping everything moving in the same direction), and your really nice idea goes out the window very fast. Individual events (like the collection of PFS tables in a single spot being watched by PFS volunteers) can keep that to a large degree because they are essentially contained units within the larger structure of the convention, and if the complaint is made in a timely fashion, your idea still works fantastically as long as both parties are actually involved in that event, and one of them wasn't just passing by. Also, the bystander issue doesn't really come into play at this level, so even the venture officer can generally act fairly quickly without that being a major concern.

I suspect where most of the problems at cons occur is outside of these micro environments and come up far more often if there's a room of tables set up for open play or a room full of vendors with constant milling around or something similar where there is no clear GM or reporting structure right there to deal with problems. At that point, anyone making any kind of complaint is by necessity going to have to provide more details in order for the staffer to even begin to know where they need to look to find the offending person to talk to them. That is where you idea breaks down; the staffer has at that point a number of equally time consuming options to consider, as simply talking to the offender is not actually all that simple. They may find it best to make sure that the person with the complaint is away from the immediate problem and than inform the rest of the staff to be aware of the fact that the complaint was made and that they need to be reminding people that this is a public space. Especially if it seemed to be a complaint about a random comment, trying to track down the offender to give them a warning may very well not be worth it, especially at really large cons where it could take a long time to track down a single individual. If the complaint was from a specific area, the staffer could make sure that that area in particular gets the message, but much more than that could be very difficult to justify if there was no further details provided beyond "I felt harassed."

Ultimately, your idea is the best solution, but it tends to have scaling issues. It makes perfect sense for a game store or a highly organized event/group, like PFS, to operate under those expectations, whether they be informal or a formal written code; forum moderators can usually also function at this level without too much difficulty. Convention staff in general are simply not going to be able to operate under those expectations. There is simply too much they have to look after at any given moment, and any action they take is going to take enough time they need enough details to know that it is indeed the right action. "I was offended" or "I was harassed" is not enough information for people at that level. The best solution at that point is for the community to step up and keep an eye out for when things are starting to get a bit hot and stop it before it occurs, because once it occurs, if the convention staff have to invoke their formal policies, the victim will likely have to answer as many questions as the accused. You can say err on the side of caution and respect for the victims all you want until you are in that kind of position where you really do have to determine who is right and how to address the problem with both sides expecting fair treatment. In real life scenarios, it is a lot harder for someone in that position of not having any kind of previous knowledge of the people or events involved to do anything simply and quickly or to visibly err on the side of caution by basically taking the accuser at their word with no further inquiries before taking action. After all, the person that you may have just falsely accused of harassment paid just as much as the accuser to be there, and they probably have just as many friends or supporters to back them up.

At some point, the accuser has to be realistic in their expectations of what convention staff can actually do, even if most of the people on the staff would love to be able to do far more. Making a complaint to a DM about a comment that was just made in within a set group is very different from going up to a random convention staffer and complaining about something that happened in the randomness of the convention. What can be reasonably expected from all the parties involved is completely different, but too many people see a blanket policy like what you are proposing, and assume that it's implementation is going to be the same every time. Even if you personally don't expect that, enough people do that it can cause big headaches for convention staff, and often enough, even in smaller, more contained spaces like a game store.
 

Rygar

Explorer
Who gets to determine what is "inappropriate"?

That's the problem. Without getting more information, you have no idea whether Bloggins said something worthy of sanction or not.




Because they have no way of knowing whether he actually NEEDS to "watch what he says". It's also a problem because Bloggins may have absolutely no idea what he said that was inappropriate. It's also possible that 99% of the people around him didn't find what he was saying inappropriate. What does "watch what you say" mean in that context?

If the policy of the convention is to avoid saying anything, to anyone, that any other person could possibly object to, the only sure way to accomplish that is to say nothing at all.

I think that's a very good question.

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/22839/

If we're going to go down this path then you're absolutely right, communicating with anyone that isn't part of your inner circle of friends is likely to get you ejected when something like the items listed in the link are considered offensive. Which means we can consider conventions and public gaming groups things of the past in the near future, which will quickly result in the hobby itself dying.
 

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