Harassment in gaming

[Springheel]

Sorry, but, you don't get to tell other people when they have or have not been harassed. That's not how it works. See, to me, this is precisely the problem that this whole thread is about. That complaints are simply dismissed or ignored by the majority.

If the word "harasment" is supposed to have any agreed-upon meaning at all, then yes you do. Otherwise, I can claim that your posts are harassment, and no one can disagree because that would simply be more harassment.
Do you accept that you are harassing me?

Why? Why is En World a safer atmosphere than other Internet forums? Is it because we're gamers and we're nicer people? Not bloody likely. It's because all complaints are treated seriously and the mods here are extremely active in shutting down bad behaviour.

It's because ENworld has a clear set of rules that are regularly enforced. It's not about what behaviour is "bad"; it's about whether a post breaks the rules or not. Presumably a post that doesn't break any rules will be left alone, regardless of whether someone "feels" it is bad behaviour.

IOW, to get that safe environment requires active responses and not just turning a blind eye and hoping for the best.

Complete strawman. No one is suggesting that.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

If the word "harasment" is supposed to have any agreed-upon meaning at all, then yes you do. Otherwise, I can claim that your posts are harassment, and no one can disagree because that would simply be more harassment.
Do you accept that you are harassing me?

Well said.

 

[Janx]

My nephew played basketball in a youth league...in the middle of hf time a coach from the other team came up to me swearing I was starting at "his girl" and threatened to break my face...the red got him called down and then told me I shouldn't stare...I was in shock I didn't even know who I was starting at...it turned out his girlfriend was sitting next to my mom...they were score keepers. I was looking at my mom, the players grandmother... So in that very real exams who was the harraser? Me for being looking in the wrong direction, Becuse 2 people felt I was harassing, or the coach that threatened me for it (that in my mind was a out of the blue)?

I have no doubt this escalated quickly, so anybody thinking of doing a smarter thing was unlikely. Its unfortunate as a Ref got involved and that raised the stakes quite a bit.

At its core however, looking at anything in reasonable sight cannot be a crime. This situation lacked proximity, words or unwelcome touch. Therefore, like the example of 2 people on opposite sides of the street, it can't be harrassment. Though I'm sure somebody has an alternative instance where it could be, but at somepoint, a line needs to be drawn.

Given that the original article had pretty obvious instances of people within 10 feet or less saying stuff that could be reasonably assumed to be directed at her or innappropriate grabbing, I think being "way over there and just looking at you" needs to qualify as "not harrassment" until we solve the really obvious bad stuff. Because comedy writers have been mining the "whatchu lookin at" mistake of not properly identifying what another being is looking at for decades.

 

[Umbran]

If the word "harasment" is supposed to have any agreed-upon meaning at all, then yes you do.

No, you don't. Some neutral third party that becomes well informed on the situation does.

Person A does something. Person B claims harassment. Person A does *not* get to decide whether they were harassing B. Nor does anyone who was distant from the situation. And, even the third party doesn't get to say whether B felt harassed. They only get to say whether the incident is actionable.

It's because ENworld has a clear set of rules that are regularly enforced.

Yes. And note how *you* (meaning the userbase in general) don't get a say in what counts as harassment on the site? We don't vote on moderation. And note how our rules are actually pretty darned vague? Outside a couple of things (religion, politics, foul language) very few things are listed as actually forbidden.

My most often used moderation phrase is, "Don't make it personal." But that's not a Rule, that's advice. There are cases where giving critique on another'f foibles is fine, and others where it is actionable. And the difference is in context, not strict rules.

 

[Rottle]

The state gets to define the legal definition of harassment, then a judge or jury decides if an action qualifies as legally harassment.

As far as harassment that doesn't reach a level that the law gets involved, well that I can see the arguements for each of us to define it for ourselves. The only issue with that is it will potentionally become so broadly defined as to be rendered meaningless. I think it would be useful to discuss what we as a group consider harassment and work from there. Or simply accept that the legal definition is the only one worth discussing, though I am not in favor of that.

In a factual sense the definition that matters is first that held by the authority in an area, store manager at a gaming store, mods on a website, security at a mall so on and so forth. Secondly the law's definition....actually reverse that law first local authority second, not to put down mods but getting banned from posting on enworld does not compare to getting to spend time in jail....

I am trying to write my definition and frankly I am making it so broad I am not sure it would work....its kind of I hope I know it when I see it but to actually put down specifics is tough....

 

[Janx]

No, you don't. Some neutral third party that becomes well informed on the situation does.

Person A does something. Person B claims harassment. Person A does *not* get to decide whether they were harassing B. Nor does anyone who was distant from the situation. And, even the third party doesn't get to say whether B felt harassed. They only get to say whether the incident is actionable.

Let's consider this from the game shop or convention setting and the author's point that people need to stand up and say something when a group member misbehaves.

So we're at the game shop, you (any reader, not just Umbran), me and Danny are playing a game. A woman walks in and I say something crude involving her and my THAC0 that could be considered offensive, sexist and just wrong on non-euclidean geometry levels.

What can you and should you do (in a non-violent, legal response)?

One of the things to consider in this example, is that YOU are not an authority figure, you are just a customer like me. But you are a Third Party, per Umbran's framing.

Personally, I think when we witness such an incident, the simplest thing we need to do is call it out and say that's not acceptable. It may be less confrontational to quietly get up and leave or go talk to the manager, but I think the woman might appreciate seeing the bad behavior put down by "peers" immediately. Which is something that sounds like doesn't happen in most women's experience.

And no, I don't go making statements like that to women at all, ever. I just used me as the bad guy so we can work from something concrete.

 

[MechaPilot]

I'm your mind if I tell a funny story about puss in boots (from the shrek movies) and someone over heard it out of context and reports me as Useing the very close to that word that is to describe female annatony...is that harassment? Of they felt harassed?

What if I brought up this very thread at my flgs and someone took a story out of context and complained to Matt (manager) that those guys over there are talking about rape...if he laughs it off and explains is he also now gulty of not taking a harassment charge seriusly?

My nephew played basketball in a youth league...in the middle of hf time a coach from the other team came up to me swearing I was starting at "his girl" and threatened to break my face...the red got him called down and then told me I shouldn't stare...I was in shock I didn't even know who I was starting at...it turned out his girlfriend was sitting next to my mom...they were score keepers. I was looking at my mom, the players grandmother... So in that very real exams who was the harraser? Me for being looking in the wrong direction, Becuse 2 people felt I was harassing, or the coach that threatened me for it (that in my mind was a out of the blue)?

Harassment is about creating a hostile environment. That very much can be done by people who think they are acting appropriately, as in the example I gave.

I'm not going to address your hypotheticals because they both involve 1) misunderstandings that can easily be explained, and/or 2) topics that probably should be avoided in public places that allow children to enter. "Puss" is a term for female anatomy on its own these days: have you never heard the phrase to "crush puss?" There are just some words, like "puss" and "niggardly" that reasonable people should understand have a decent chance of being misinterpreted as being vulgar or racist, especially if a person catches only part of what was said.

However, the threat against you in your real life example was harassment, possibly criminal harassment (most likely assault, or some other crime more specifically defined as making verbal threats to another's person).

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Yes, you probably should. At least the dick joke one. Is it appropriate for a venue that includes children?

I've had to do this with coworkers at job sites where children are present. And at grocery stores when either my wife or children (or both) were present.

It's not just teenage males living in their own little bubbles of boisterous arrogance that have to be dealt with, but grown men in their early to mid-twenties. The later seem to have formed the idea that because two men are speaking the world at large is irrelevant; their words are for each other and that alone is sufficient reason to spend no energy whatsoever on the consideration of the effect their words might have on others.

So yeah, burst those bubbles. Guys like that who remain unchallenged go on to become a$$holes that make life miserable for their coworkers, friends and family.

 

[Springheel]

No, you don't. Some neutral third party that becomes well informed on the situation does.

You're changing the definition of "you" to mean the person accused of harassment. That wasn't how I was using the term, nor was the comment I was responding to, as far as I can tell.

Person A does something. Person B claims harassment. Person A does *not* get to decide whether they were harassing B. Nor does anyone who was distant from the situation. And, even the third party doesn't get to say whether B felt harassed. They only get to say whether the incident is actionable.

You're not really disagreeing with what I said. In order for the word "harassment" to mean anything more than "whatever someone doesn't like", then it has to have some kind of qualifiers. Once those exist, behaviour can be measured against those qualifiers to see if it actually is harassment or not. You can argue that neither person A or person B are in the best position to do that without bias, but that's really a separate point from the one I was making.

And note how *you* (meaning the userbase in general) don't get a say in what counts as harassment on the site?

Yes, that's essentially the point I was making. It is not left up to me or the userbase in general to decide what counts as harassment, even if I feel I have been harassed.

 

[tomBitonti]

Maybe we can leave off from discussion EnWorld's policies here? I know they are somewhat topical, but I would prefer to shift that part of the discussion to Meta, if at all. I don't see a way to "stay within the lines" if that particular discussion is continued.

Thx!
TomB