Harm and critical hits...

[thebitdnd]

Hi,

I play in Destan's campaign and a situation arose this past playing session that we believe we adjudicated correctly, but it left us feeling less than satisfied with the ruling (didn't get warm fuzzies that it was the right thing to do).

I rather imposing evil outsider cast a harm spell and rolled a 20 on his touch attack. According to page 140 of the PHB, any spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical. The crit was confirmed and the character (not me, fortunately) failed his Will save. This outsider was of sufficient level to inflict the maximum for the spell (150 hp on a failed save), so doubled, the attack did 300hp of damage and killed the character outright.

Questions;
1. Can harm spells (or any spell without variable damage, for that matter) score a critical hit.
2. Does a failed save mean the spell can take a character below 1 hit point? It clearly states that "if the creature saves..." the target's hit points cannot be reduced below 1. This led us to believe that a failed save could indeed bring a character below 1. Agree? Disagree?

Thanks for any help. Below are the relevant sections from the SRD. I checked the DMG and PHB for any evidence of a mistake, but found none. I quote the SRD because I don't have the books with me at the moment.

From the SRD:

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level). If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1

From the SRD:

A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.

Thanks,

thebitdnd (a.k.a. Kellus)

 

[UltimaGabe]

No matter what, Harm cannot reduce someone's HP below 1.

 

[Nifft]

I would disagree. I would say that the attack receives critical treatment -- but a touch attack deals no damage.

If the outsider elected to deliver the pre-cast Harm with a claw, and rolled a 20, what damage would be multiplied? The spell, the claw, or both? I'd say only the claw.

This is distinct from spells like Scorching Ray, which require an attack roll but do not allow the possibility of delivering the spell with an attack.

So, that's my question: should you treat spells which are an attack like you treat spells which require an attack, and if so, do you multiply both the attack and the spell?

-- N

 

[dshai527]

That is how my group has played it in past campaigns (Doubling the damage), but we felt that the spell could not take a character below 1 hp regardless of the crit.

 

[Ferox4]

No matter what, Harm cannot reduce someone's HP below 1.

Yes - this is an important point.

However, as to whether Harm can score a critical hit...... I would rule no. It doesn't matter how hard you hit a creature, you just need to touch them. i believe they were variant rules in 2E for spells doing critical damage - not sure if there is a variant in 3.x.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Any spell that requires an attack roll and does damage can score a critical hit. Harm clearly meets those criterea.

However, you're parsing the text incorrectly. The "if the creature successfully saves" is meant to be bound to just the next clause, not to the entire rest of the sentence. That is:

(If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount) - but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1​

not

If the creature successfully saves: (harm deals half this amount but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1)​

Whether the spell is unable to reduce the target's hit points below 1 does not depend on whether the target saves.

 

[Destan]

I'm not sure I agree. But I'm also not sure I disagree.

In the SRD, it states:

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level). If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.

It seems fairly clear to me that, if they intended Harm to be incapable of killing an opponent outright, they would (should?) have worded it thusly:

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level), but it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1. If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount.

I'm inclined to think the intent was to not allow Harm to kill an opponent outright, but that's not what's reflected in the rules. I may change my ruling; I had ruled the target could be killed by a Harm spell.

The second issue:

The PHB's only guidance on a critical dealt from a spell is that the spell must require an "attack roll." Clearly, Harm requires an attack roll.

From the post above, how would one rule a critical delivered with a shocking grasp spell delivered with an unarmed strike? Is the spell damage doubled? Is the unarmed strike damaged doubled? Are both? I think we begin to wade into DM adjudication waters in this instance.

If we say that a touch spell cannot deliver a critical, then we're clearly ignoring the statement which states that a spell need only have an "attack roll" in order to be critical-worthy.

So, in the end, I ruled that: Harm could kill an opponent outright that had failed his save, and that Harm could indeed be doubled from a successful critical hit. If either of those rulings fall through, the charater would have survived (I think).

Needless to say, I don't have a warm fuzzy about any of the above interpretations.

D

 

[mikebr99]

Whether the spell is unable to reduce the target's hit points below 1 does not depend on whether the target saves.

How do you get that?

There are 2 sentences (the third has no relevance in this discussion) in the spell description (3.5 PHB):

One, for a failed Will save:

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level).

And one for a successful Will save:

If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.

In 3.0, sure you couldn't be brought below 1... 3.5 did away with that, at least for a failed save.

Mike

 

[Tatsukun]

Wait, have I lost my mind? Can you deliver a touch attack spell with an unarmed strike/natural weapon now? Is this a 3.5 change I missed? I'll have to look...

-Tatsu

 

[Artoomis]

Wait, have I lost my mind? Can you deliver a touch attack spell with an unarmed strike/natural weapon now? Is this a 3.5 change I missed? I'll have to look...

-Tatsu

Yes you can, it's not a 3.5 change, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I think.