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Has anyone played a Tome of Battle class?
- Thread starter Sqwonk
- Start date
Gold Roger
First Post
I've got two Warblades in my four PC group. They have been played for 4 or 5 rather extended sessions and are now level 2. So far they have been well in balance.
I'm also the kind of DM that uses lots of noncore stuff himself, so this campaign will see lots of ToB stuff in play.
While I loved the concept and executionon first sight and still like most of it, there are some things I'm discontent with or wary of. I disagree with the decission that the system uses alternate classes, don't like the set in stone 9 disciplines inherint to the system and dislike that two disciplines use supernatural stuff.
I expect the current campaign to run every second week to weekly for about a little less than year from now and with my slowed advancement that should lead to about level 6 or 7.
I'll propably share my expiriences at that point, but most likely for my next campaign I'll either modify the system so it's aquired entirely by feats if the next edition seems far away or just do a for me rare thing and eliminate it completely and hope that 4th edition enhances martial classes in a more integrated way.
I'm also the kind of DM that uses lots of noncore stuff himself, so this campaign will see lots of ToB stuff in play.
While I loved the concept and executionon first sight and still like most of it, there are some things I'm discontent with or wary of. I disagree with the decission that the system uses alternate classes, don't like the set in stone 9 disciplines inherint to the system and dislike that two disciplines use supernatural stuff.
I expect the current campaign to run every second week to weekly for about a little less than year from now and with my slowed advancement that should lead to about level 6 or 7.
I'll propably share my expiriences at that point, but most likely for my next campaign I'll either modify the system so it's aquired entirely by feats if the next edition seems far away or just do a for me rare thing and eliminate it completely and hope that 4th edition enhances martial classes in a more integrated way.
I've played a swordsage in a test campaign. Other players have a warblade, crusader, fighter, barbarian (the other two players are playing these too), a monk (I play this). As well as 2 npc clerics.
So far, the swordsage seems a bit weak in comparison to the warblade and crusader, but more powerful then the monk.
We've played up to 12th level now. They've been alot of fun. There's been no clearly better class in the bunch as far as pumping out damage (well, except the monk, who can't keep up, but he does trip/grapple stuff), some levels are better for some classes then others as well as some encounters let some classes shine over others.
The crusader's random maneuver mechanic is a little clunky though. I don't really care much for that class. He's a really good party buffer though.
But overall, they seem fine in play. Casters seem to have a bit more trouble with them though (or maybe its just because we are learning how they work).
So far, the swordsage seems a bit weak in comparison to the warblade and crusader, but more powerful then the monk.
We've played up to 12th level now. They've been alot of fun. There's been no clearly better class in the bunch as far as pumping out damage (well, except the monk, who can't keep up, but he does trip/grapple stuff), some levels are better for some classes then others as well as some encounters let some classes shine over others.
The crusader's random maneuver mechanic is a little clunky though. I don't really care much for that class. He's a really good party buffer though.
But overall, they seem fine in play. Casters seem to have a bit more trouble with them though (or maybe its just because we are learning how they work).
RangerWickett
Legend
I played a Swordsage at 5th level for four sessions before succumbing to a CR 10 giant. I had a special maneuver that dealt +6d6 damage to large creatures, and I really wanted to try it out. Well, I missed, and the giant thumped me.
Before then, it was fun, though a little frustrating that I would just never use some of my maneuvers because it was better to use one or two and then just attack normally. I was trying to go for a ninja-esque warrior with high Jump, Tumble, and such, and lots of mobility-based powers from Setting Sun, but I tried to play like a fighter when I was really more like a monk. I died when I got too close to a big creature.
I played an elf so I could use a bow, because for some stupid reason swordsages aren't proficient in any ranged weapons. At 28-pt. buy it was hard to make a good character because of multiple-ability dependency (strength for attacks, wisdom for AC, intelligence for skill points to use maneuvers, dex for AC). Also, the fact that some abilities keyed off of using attacks of a particular school, or only when using a particular school's weapons, was difficult to keep track of.
I think that, at low levels at least, they should have simplified the Swordsage, because as is it has too many modifiers that apply only occasionally.
Before then, it was fun, though a little frustrating that I would just never use some of my maneuvers because it was better to use one or two and then just attack normally. I was trying to go for a ninja-esque warrior with high Jump, Tumble, and such, and lots of mobility-based powers from Setting Sun, but I tried to play like a fighter when I was really more like a monk. I died when I got too close to a big creature.
I played an elf so I could use a bow, because for some stupid reason swordsages aren't proficient in any ranged weapons. At 28-pt. buy it was hard to make a good character because of multiple-ability dependency (strength for attacks, wisdom for AC, intelligence for skill points to use maneuvers, dex for AC). Also, the fact that some abilities keyed off of using attacks of a particular school, or only when using a particular school's weapons, was difficult to keep track of.
I think that, at low levels at least, they should have simplified the Swordsage, because as is it has too many modifiers that apply only occasionally.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I played a warblade, now 6th-level, but he also started at 6th. (I'm the new guy in the group.)
Pretty good. The inability to roll above a 10 on a d20 is extremely annoying and made it difficult to judge it's balance. It's probably slightly overpowered compared to a fighter. It could use a hit point and maneuver regeneration nerf.
I went with mostly White Raven party buffing techniques. It seems to work, but you need the party to stick together. (The last battle, we had one PC firing from a ship against a bad guy, another PC rogue/barbarian in the woods stabbing someone with a poisoned longspear, and my warblade was flanking with a "cleric of the wall" custom class, so I could only give bonuses to one PC.) Do yourself a favor - dump the breastplate and get a chain shirt. A speed penalty is bad if you're going to use White Raven charge maneuvers and don't have a horse.
I didn't get to "abuse" the really quick maneuver regeneration, as the DM deliberately made the battles easy.
Swordsages suffer from both MAD and light fighter syndrome. They're cool, but they're only really good for throwaway NPCs, not PCs. Even houseruling them to have a good BAB didn't really make them impressive. Unlike a warblade, they must use a maneuver every round.
The crusader's random maneuver regeneration ensured I wouldn't even try to play it.
Pretty good. The inability to roll above a 10 on a d20 is extremely annoying and made it difficult to judge it's balance. It's probably slightly overpowered compared to a fighter. It could use a hit point and maneuver regeneration nerf.
I went with mostly White Raven party buffing techniques. It seems to work, but you need the party to stick together. (The last battle, we had one PC firing from a ship against a bad guy, another PC rogue/barbarian in the woods stabbing someone with a poisoned longspear, and my warblade was flanking with a "cleric of the wall" custom class, so I could only give bonuses to one PC.) Do yourself a favor - dump the breastplate and get a chain shirt. A speed penalty is bad if you're going to use White Raven charge maneuvers and don't have a horse.
I didn't get to "abuse" the really quick maneuver regeneration, as the DM deliberately made the battles easy.
Swordsages suffer from both MAD and light fighter syndrome. They're cool, but they're only really good for throwaway NPCs, not PCs. Even houseruling them to have a good BAB didn't really make them impressive. Unlike a warblade, they must use a maneuver every round.
The crusader's random maneuver regeneration ensured I wouldn't even try to play it.
Aaron L
Hero
I really really like the concept of the Sworsage, and would love to play one, but it seems weak as a class, especially compared to the Warblade. The maneuver recovery method (giving up all actions for a round to get back one maneuver) compared to the Warblades (takeing a round of only one attack and gettign back all maneuvers) seems really ridiculous, especially cinsidering the fact that, as has been pointed out, the class has a mediocre BAB and HAS to use maneuvers all the time to make it a worthwhile combatant (since it is, well, you know... a class all about mastering sword techniques, it should be a worthwhile combatant. All of these classes that are supposedly about combat skill that get a medium BAB really irk me. Its like describing a class as being devoted to the mastery arcane magic, and then giving it a paladins spell progression.)
And the Crusader and its "all my abilities are randomly determined" ensures that I, as well, would never, ever want to play one.
The Warblade seems totally over the top, with its 12 sided hit dice, 4 skill points, bonus feats, and the aformentioned ability to regain all of its maneuvers for the price of sacrificing a full attack. I dont know how it can be compared to the Swordsage and be considered balanced.
I am seriously hoping for some errata to fix the Swordsages maneuver recovery, or Im just going to give it the same method as the Warblade (and either a full BAB or a Flurry of Blows type ability.)
And the Crusader and its "all my abilities are randomly determined" ensures that I, as well, would never, ever want to play one.
The Warblade seems totally over the top, with its 12 sided hit dice, 4 skill points, bonus feats, and the aformentioned ability to regain all of its maneuvers for the price of sacrificing a full attack. I dont know how it can be compared to the Swordsage and be considered balanced.
I am seriously hoping for some errata to fix the Swordsages maneuver recovery, or Im just going to give it the same method as the Warblade (and either a full BAB or a Flurry of Blows type ability.)
I've tried a few, but I made the mistake of testing them out in the updated "Tomb of Horrors." They definitely bleed just like everyone else does. 
I went through 2 'sages and 1 'blade.
One swordsage was a Setting Sun/Stone Dragon disciple that, like RangerWickett, I played too much like a front-line fighter and not enough like a skirmisher. He could dish out he damage but had next to no AC and was *literally* ripped in half (or maybe three pieces) in the first round of combat after he gloriously missed on his own attack.
The other was a Desert Wind disciple. He didn't really have any better AC, but he could do some ranged attacks with his fire. He was very interesting to play. In the end, I think it was mediocre hp that did him in.
The last was a warblade. He was fun. I don't think he overly shined in combat. Of the four readied maneuvers (at his level 9), I think he only ever had the chance to use one as the others weren't appropriate. He was not as fun to play as the swordsage, but he could definately take more hits. I think the warblade shouldget a faster progression of stances. As it stands, a level 9 warblade gets 2 and they're only level 1 (assuming he doesn't use feats to get more). I think it would be interesting to give them more stances: swordsages can be more versatile in the maneuvers-department and warblades can be more versatile in the stance-department.
Overall, the ToB rocks!
I went through 2 'sages and 1 'blade.
One swordsage was a Setting Sun/Stone Dragon disciple that, like RangerWickett, I played too much like a front-line fighter and not enough like a skirmisher. He could dish out he damage but had next to no AC and was *literally* ripped in half (or maybe three pieces) in the first round of combat after he gloriously missed on his own attack.
The other was a Desert Wind disciple. He didn't really have any better AC, but he could do some ranged attacks with his fire. He was very interesting to play. In the end, I think it was mediocre hp that did him in.
The last was a warblade. He was fun. I don't think he overly shined in combat. Of the four readied maneuvers (at his level 9), I think he only ever had the chance to use one as the others weren't appropriate. He was not as fun to play as the swordsage, but he could definately take more hits. I think the warblade shouldget a faster progression of stances. As it stands, a level 9 warblade gets 2 and they're only level 1 (assuming he doesn't use feats to get more). I think it would be interesting to give them more stances: swordsages can be more versatile in the maneuvers-department and warblades can be more versatile in the stance-department.
Overall, the ToB rocks!
Terraism
Explorer
I've been playing a crusader (actually, a crusader/knight, from the PHB2, but that's besides the point.) He's third level now (2nd crusader,) and I'm having a blast with him. The delayed damage pool is an incredibly fun mechanic, the crusader schools (devoted spirit, stone, and white raven,) fit very well, I think. The later two aren't particularly mystical, and while devoted spirit (with healing on strikes) is, because I'm playing him as a sort of paladin surrogate, it doesn't seem at all out of line. Power-wise, I was worried the maneuvers would end up being a little powerful, but what with strikes being wasted when you miss, it really doesn't seem that bad.
RangerWickett
Legend
To be fair, my 5th level swordsage did have AC 22 (chain shirt +1, Dex 16, Wis 16, ring of protection), but in exchange I had a 10 Strength. I used a Spiked Chain, which was fun because I felt like I was a bad-ass, but I totally did not have enough feats to really be a bad-ass.
We didn't have a cleric in the party, so I took Vital Recovery and abused the hell out of it.
We didn't have a cleric in the party, so I took Vital Recovery and abused the hell out of it.
Aaron L said:
For as much as the warblade seems over the top on paper, it hasn't come out that way in play. Actually, according to customer service, the warblade can use his swift action to regain his maneuvers and still make a full attack. The warblade is balanced by the lack of ranged, lack of heavy armor, much more limited manuever sets and has to use those skill points for some of his disicpline related skills, so they aren't freebies he can place anywhere. Don't get me wrong, its a powerful class, but it hasn't turned out to be all that.
That being said, I think he is pretty well balanced, but the most powerful of the 3 classes proposed. I am totally against his ability to switch his specializations to other weapons, unless the fighter gets the same ability.
I don't think you will see any errata regarding the maneuver recovery for the swordsage. As I understand it, they got the worst recovery because they get the most stances and maneuvers, though you can take a feat to help it out a bit. In our test campaign, we are going to give the swordsage full bab and a half-progression sudden strike in place of the weak +1 initiative that should have really been improved initiative somewhere along the way. So we will see how that goes.
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