Has the horse left the barn?

[Khairn]

OT question: Has anyone tried the revised Elements of Magic that I see in the sidebar? Looks very interesting!

I used EoM as a replacement for the magic system in Iron Heroes and it worked great. I then used it in conjunction with Grim Tales (2nd World Sourcebook / Modern Fantasy story), and again, its flexibility worked out perfectly. One of my favorite D20 products.

Its a great addition to the Community Supporter bonus content.

 

[Greg K]

I used EoM as a replacement for the magic system in Iron Heroes and it worked great. I then used it in conjunction with Grim Tales (2nd World Sourcebook / Modern Fantasy story), and again, its flexibility worked out perfectly. One of my favorite D20 products.

Its a great addition to the Community Supporter bonus content.

I agree the EOM books are fantastic. I, especially, like EOM: Mythic Earth which is a completely different system. I always thought Grim Tales would be great with them.

 

[Aristotle]

After being an early adopter, and near fanboy, of 4E I found that some of the things that made it most promising to me also made it less than ideal for play at my table. I had so many plans for it too. I was so certain it was going to be the perfect game for me. *sigh* I've been thinking recently of giving it another shot. My usual table has pretty much shut it down as an option though, so I'd have to find a group.

I have an amazing number of the D&D minis so, while I love my science fiction games, I really want a fantasy game in my collection. Will it be 4E? I'm not sure at this point. I find myself more and more interested in Pathfinder these days, even having never owned one of their books.

 

[rounser]

It's a good place to be, and 4E is part of that universe.

For me, 4E isn't part of the D&D universe. I can't suspend my disbelief for a default setting of dragonpeople and teleport elves everywhere plus whatever else enters the everything-is-core, and the awkward retcons attempted to shoehorn 4E into FR and GH I think prove that 4E has special needs. So I can't even attempt to board this bandwagon, because I saved to disbelieve.

I also don't trust the current designers to produce fluff I'd consider tasteful, or not to compromise all else for gamist design principles either. Like some other folks have pointed out, their underlying design philosophies just don't seem to mesh with what I like about D&D. Can't say that about any other edition, all of which had their issues but at least seemed to have their heart in the right place.

 

[Psion]

If you look at it from the perspective of "everything they're doing is a rehash" (e.g. all the campaign worlds including Gamma World being old IP, re-releasing the rules in a very-similar-to-'83-Basic-Set format, etc.), then that's a pretty strong indication that they're still leaning heavily on "nostalgia buys" and "DnD4Lyfers"

I forget where I read this, but when James Wyatt was asked about making beginner friendly rules sets, he said that targeting the old gamers was a higher priority.

Nonetheless, the whole effort seems like putting lipstick on a pig to me. I was tempted for a millisecond to pick up Dark Sun when I saw the covers. Then I remember that this is more or less the same team that hashed up Planescape in 3.5 when they gave us Planar Handbook, and had a better image of what the product would really be like: 4e with Dark Sun makeup.

 

[aboyd]

For me, 4E isn't part of the D&D universe. I can't suspend my disbelief for a default setting of dragonpeople and teleport elves everywhere plus whatever else enters the everything-is-core, and the awkward retcons attempted to shoehorn 4E into FR and GH I think prove that 4E has special needs.

You know, what's weird is that I actually think getting away from elves/dwarves/humans is a good thing. I like that D&D has moved on to dragonborn/tieflings/whatever. It makes the world more fresh, and gives us a chance to explore new ideas instead of rehashing the same old "ha ha that dwarf really hates that elf" shtick. Having said that, after you've sat with a teenager playing a dragonborn with a massive anime-style sword and "xtreem attitude" you get weary really fast. And sitting with that teenager's girlfriend as she rolls up her tiefling who is "goth and emo combined," you kinda want to hurl. Do it for a dozen more games and your headache will be throbbing.

Oh well. I still have hope for 5th. Maybe the target demographic will shift.

 

[Piratecat]

YHaving said that, after you've sat with a teenager playing a dragonborn with a massive anime-style sword and "xtreem attitude" you get weary really fast. And sitting with that teenager's girlfriend as she rolls up her tiefling who is "goth and emo combined," you kinda want to hurl. Do it for a dozen more games and your headache will be throbbing.

But this has always been the case! I remember very clearly Randimar the Manyhanded, my 1989 1e fighter who wielded a broadsword in each hand and helped kill a green dragon in one round at 6th level. He was twinked out beyond belief and about as badass as they come. I totally loved him. I still have his character sheet around somewhere.

I really think what you're describing has everything to do with the players' age and experience -- and players who are "bad" when they're young (ie who play differently than I do!) evolve their play styles over time if they're still having fun in the game.

There are lots of reasons a person might like or dislike an edition, but I'm not convinced that's one of 'em.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Nah, the target demo needs to stay fresh and young. I don't mind getting away from the staid elf/dwarf races (though in my mind, they should've kept the eladrin and half-elves out, included the gnomes, and jettisoned their weird halflings). My main issue with the Dragonborn is their horrible name, and my main issue with the Tieflings is their horrible art, but I think they're fine additions to the core game (though admittedly not really great for Tolkeinesque high fantasy, but then, there's more than that out there now).

But even with those issues, I play and DM 4e. I'm on board the ship, I guess. I think hybrid rules and Dark Sun are great additions -- they make me happier than FR and power splatbooks anyway. Since I'm not a newbie, I don't have any interest in the Red Box, but the hobby can always use new blood. I like some of 4e well enough to not want to switch back (buffs alone almost do this for me), but I don't have the same feeling with 4e that I did with 3e, of this being THE GAME FOR ME.

I'm not loyal to 4e like I was to 3e. I'm looking at and playing with other systems. And FFZ is off the ground, now (though a bit rough around the edges, and in need of some work on the DM's side and some playtesting), and I'm figuring out where I want to take it.

This new horse is sleeker than the last one, much more efficient, though I think it lacks the character of that slightly awkward pony we left in the Pathfinder stables.

 

[bagger245]

You know, what's weird is that I actually think getting away from elves/dwarves/humans is a good thing. I like that D&D has moved on to dragonborn/tieflings/whatever. It makes the world more fresh, and gives us a chance to explore new ideas instead of rehashing the same old "ha ha that dwarf really hates that elf" shtick. Having said that, after you've sat with a teenager playing a dragonborn with a massive anime-style sword and "xtreem attitude" you get weary really fast. And sitting with that teenager's girlfriend as she rolls up her tiefling who is "goth and emo combined," you kinda want to hurl. Do it for a dozen more games and your headache will be throbbing.

Oh well. I still have hope for 5th. Maybe the target demographic will shift.

You have a point there. I have seen tons of dwarf and elf cliches but never get tired of them. Put me in a party of Dr Manhattan Devas, goth Tieflings and emo Shadar Kais, and I just wanna self TPK.

Not sure about 5th ed. I believe future editions of D&D will never replicate the previous editions. I read Wyatt's interview and he said 5e will be much similar to 4e than 3e to 4e. More like fixes to the current 4e game. And remember, 5e is for the future kids who are currently toddlers now.

 

[Trihelios]

I wouldn't turn down a chance to play in a 4e game, as I still haven't played it yet. I'd like to at least give it a try.

But the initial books weren't able to persuade me to run a game using 4e and the prospect of buying an extra set of books to make it work is not appealing.