Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
Yep, I agree. Zahn, Stackpole and Allston made the books I enjoyed the most from all.
Has the Star Wars Expanded Universe "Jumped the Shark"?
Star Wars is an IP that's being milked for all its worth rather than being treated organically as a body of work that has a beginning, middle, and end. It's being exploited by the very folks who own it, with no desire to treat it with any respect. So yeah, it jumped the shark.
The counterpoint is that the expression "jumping the shark" is derived from Happy Days, which never really aspired to be a brilliant or ambitious series, so what's the big deal about Fonzie jumping a shark in one particular episode? Likewise, Star Wars was always a pretty shallow body of work to begin with. When you're ten years old, the allure of being singled-out as special is very powerul. It worked for Star Wars, Harry Potter, Ergaon, Avatar, and so many others. But as an adult, doesn't it start to sink in that these "choen one" stories are just a tad trite?
Instead of telling stories about a protagonist that's a self-made man---experienced, resourceful, insightful, complex--all you gotta do is hack out a yarn about some naive kid who's just naturally better than all these other folks who've worked longer and harder than him. He approaches every problem directly and impulsively, plunging headlong into every snare, but his good, brave heart and naturally superior power allows him to scrape through by the skin of his teeth. The chosen one is patently undeserving of his power and success, but the bad guys are shown to be so totally mean that we want to see them overthrown, and thus we put aside the fact that in the real world, most folks don't have much respect for kids born with silver spoons in their mouth.
Beyond that, Star Wars was not well-positioned to avoid painting itself into a corner. The obvious problem is that those who have access to the Force handily outclass those who don't. So, you gotta start contriving things like "forceproof" armor and force-immune aliens so that you don't have to keep going back to the Sith well for another bucket. Then conversely, you gotta start topping every feat that the force is capable of accomplishing, until eventually Yoda moving a tie-fighter is a joke; we're moving planets and suns now! And you have to start explaining things too--you can't go decades without having to eventually stop and address some of the obvious questions that got skimmed over in three movies. Which is too bad, because the mystery is always better than the explanation.
Speaking of explanations, has there ever been any explanation of how a technologically sophisticated galactic civilization can go millenia without any actual technological advances or shifts?
The counterpoint is that the expression "jumping the shark" is derived from Happy Days, which never really aspired to be a brilliant or ambitious series, so what's the big deal about Fonzie jumping a shark in one particular episode? Likewise, Star Wars was always a pretty shallow body of work to begin with. When you're ten years old, the allure of being singled-out as special is very powerul. It worked for Star Wars, Harry Potter, Ergaon, Avatar, and so many others. But as an adult, doesn't it start to sink in that these "choen one" stories are just a tad trite?
Instead of telling stories about a protagonist that's a self-made man---experienced, resourceful, insightful, complex--all you gotta do is hack out a yarn about some naive kid who's just naturally better than all these other folks who've worked longer and harder than him. He approaches every problem directly and impulsively, plunging headlong into every snare, but his good, brave heart and naturally superior power allows him to scrape through by the skin of his teeth. The chosen one is patently undeserving of his power and success, but the bad guys are shown to be so totally mean that we want to see them overthrown, and thus we put aside the fact that in the real world, most folks don't have much respect for kids born with silver spoons in their mouth.
Beyond that, Star Wars was not well-positioned to avoid painting itself into a corner. The obvious problem is that those who have access to the Force handily outclass those who don't. So, you gotta start contriving things like "forceproof" armor and force-immune aliens so that you don't have to keep going back to the Sith well for another bucket. Then conversely, you gotta start topping every feat that the force is capable of accomplishing, until eventually Yoda moving a tie-fighter is a joke; we're moving planets and suns now! And you have to start explaining things too--you can't go decades without having to eventually stop and address some of the obvious questions that got skimmed over in three movies. Which is too bad, because the mystery is always better than the explanation.
Speaking of explanations, has there ever been any explanation of how a technologically sophisticated galactic civilization can go millenia without any actual technological advances or shifts?
Dire Bare
Legend
Depends on which "Old Republic"! The setting for the KOTOR games did not have corded lightsabers.
Orius
Legend
That's one of the biggest problems I have with the franchise as a whole, simply the sheer amount of time that it spans without apparent huge leaps in tech. But it's Star Wars, so I think the MST3K Mantra should probably apply here. Don't think too hard about it and let it ruin the enjoyment.
With some of the philosophies that run rampant throughout the Star Wars universe (apparently, taking children from their parents and raising them to be stoic and supress all the things that make them human (or kel-dor, or twi'lek) is OK; self-aware droids are just tools; millions of cloned humans can be thrown away as cannon fodder; slaughtering an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders, including non-combatant women and children is OK; etc.), it wouldn't surprised me if the galaxy has become psychologically and technologically stagnant. It's very much an elitist society (at least as depicted in the films) where you can get away with murder on a lot of planets.
That being said, I want to make it clear that I do love Star Wars.
I'm just aware that it doesn't depict a utopia or idealized society by any stretch; some facets of it are quite disturbing, actually.
That being said, I want to make it clear that I do love Star Wars.
I'm just aware that it doesn't depict a utopia or idealized society by any stretch; some facets of it are quite disturbing, actually.
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"Jumping the shark" (in its original meaning) refers to anything that is essentially "de-evolution" of the series; a character forgetting key lessons learned before that were critical to character development, a reversal of a plot-changing event, or the series reversing it's overall themes are all examples of jumping the shark (and are the issues people took with Fonzie's literal jump). Jumping the shark basically requires the audience to forget previous events to accept new actions as plausible.
In my mind, the SW universe jumped the shark when Kevin J. Anderson wrote the Jedi Academy trilogy. This jumped the shark by 1) re-writing history established in the Dark Empire comic series 2) ineptly re-creating an Imperial superweapon threat, forcing the series back into an enemy that had already been defeated, and 3) portraying the characters and caricatures of their former selves. Of course, I generally consider Mr. Anderson to be the most successful hack in the writing business, so my opinion may be flawed. Also, I am appalled that the Daala character has been allowed to exist this long in the SW setting.
Luke Skywalker marrying Mara Jade is jumping the shark, because it would never happen with the original, unaltered characters. The Galactic Alliance turning it's back on the jedi order is jumping the shark, because it is reverting the series back to where it started, without any narative or developmental reason. Killing off Chewbacca in an undignified manner is jumping the shark, because he has been established as a hero of high order in a series where heros are treated very classically.
Orius
Legend
Daala wouldn't be so bad if she actually showed some actual tactical thinking at least in KJA's books. Instead her so-called strategies basically seem to be "go Leeroy Jenkins on the New Republic and when that fails to gank them then retreat and whine about Imperial warlords".
What's so bad about that? That felt like the sort of direction Zahn was writing in when he did the Thrawn trilogy, particulary the last book.
The Powers That Be at Lucasarts seem to be caught between a rock and a hard place; I recall reading somewhere that novels featuring the Big Three as major protagonists sell substantially better than novels that don't. This has resulted in Luke, Han and Leia having to save the galaxy again and again. Yet those characters are inevitably aging in the novel line, and the publishers must be aware that at some point, they'll have to let the Three settle down for good, or at least let other characters take center stage.
Or, given some of Luca$'s tendencies, maybe we'll get a 100 year-old, greying, balding Han piloting the Falcon with spotted hands, but even so displaying the same skill and spirit he had in the days of the Civil War.
I agree that the Vong felt, well, unlike Star Wars. I can understand the new publisher (Del Rey, I think) wanting to move past the "Imperial warlord of the week" pattern established by the previous one (Bantam?), and to shake things up. So they came up with the idea of a new major war. Unfortunately, I never managed to accept the Vong and their arsenal as plausible. Completely biological technology advantageously comparing to hyperdrive, lasers, starfighters, capital ships, etc.? It was too much.
The Legacy of Force series wasn't too bad at first, but the last two books were IMO really bad and have mostly turned me off the novel line, at least in this particular era. The fact that the latest Fate of the Jedi novel apparently only has 236 pages of writing at full hardcover price does nothing to improve my opinion
Oh, and I agree that it's a bit silly to use spoilers for a series of novel that ended a half-dozen years ago. Should we keep from mentioning spoilers from Lord of the Rings as well?
Two last but important notes: first, if you like Aaron Allston, you might want to read this:
aaron_allston: Orange Juice, Laxatives, and Near Death Experiences
And if you like the Legacy and/or Republic comics, its author John Ostrander is in similar straits:
TheForce.Net - Latest News - John Ostrander Benefit Auction
Or, given some of Luca$'s tendencies, maybe we'll get a 100 year-old, greying, balding Han piloting the Falcon with spotted hands, but even so displaying the same skill and spirit he had in the days of the Civil War.
I agree that the Vong felt, well, unlike Star Wars. I can understand the new publisher (Del Rey, I think) wanting to move past the "Imperial warlord of the week" pattern established by the previous one (Bantam?), and to shake things up. So they came up with the idea of a new major war. Unfortunately, I never managed to accept the Vong and their arsenal as plausible. Completely biological technology advantageously comparing to hyperdrive, lasers, starfighters, capital ships, etc.? It was too much.
The Legacy of Force series wasn't too bad at first, but the last two books were IMO really bad and have mostly turned me off the novel line, at least in this particular era. The fact that the latest Fate of the Jedi novel apparently only has 236 pages of writing at full hardcover price does nothing to improve my opinion
Oh, and I agree that it's a bit silly to use spoilers for a series of novel that ended a half-dozen years ago. Should we keep from mentioning spoilers from Lord of the Rings as well?
Two last but important notes: first, if you like Aaron Allston, you might want to read this:
aaron_allston: Orange Juice, Laxatives, and Near Death Experiences
And if you like the Legacy and/or Republic comics, its author John Ostrander is in similar straits:
TheForce.Net - Latest News - John Ostrander Benefit Auction
wingsandsword
Legend
I won't begrudge Star Wars for the idea that in thousands of years there has been very little technological progress. Vast, galaxy-scale starfaring civilizations with millennia of history and very slow technological progress once they get that "galactic civilization" level is pretty common in Sci-Fi. Dune comes right to mind, so does the Foundation.
Think of the level of progress they reached before technology slowed down. They have FTL drives that can put a starship that is a mile long and holds tens of thousands of people across the galaxy in days or hours, and FTL communications providing real-time communications galaxywide. They have artificial gravity, force fields, and weapons that could easily maul planets into unrecognizable slag. They can clone people so well that the clones don't necessarily know they are clones (Sate Pestage, Ysanne Isard and Bevel Lemelisk were in this situation). They have free-floating holograms. They have reliable and simple antigravity that can make entire cities float permanently. They have medical technology that can cure almost any disease or malady, and prosthetic limbs, internal and sensory organs that are just as good (if not better) than their organic counterparts. They have intelligent (and possibly fully sentient) robots that can fill virtually all servant roles and many technical and highly skilled positions. They also have an order of what are essentially psychic monks that can literally see the future and fight with the power of twenty men, and are devoted to preserving peace and justice.
I wouldn't call the wedding of Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade jumping the shark either, as they had spent years building to that point. Mara Jade was driven to kill Luke when they first met, but that compulsion was eliminated by the end of the novels she appeared in. They spent more than a decade within the setting, and about 5 years or so in the real world.
If I had to focus one one specific point, it would probably be either:
1. Vector Prime. The novel (from 1999) that starts the New Jedi Order series and Yuzzhan Vong War story. Killing Chewbacca off casually, introducing the Vong and making them out to be so much more dangerous and unstoppable than even the Galactic Empire at it's peak, and giving them biotechnology that easily beats out starships developed over thousands of years in a stand-up fight.
2. Outcast. The novel (from 2009) that starts the Fate of the Jedi series. Daala is now the leader of the Galactic Alliance (despite being the most incompetent major Imperial leader), and the galaxy is on the edge of starting yet another Jedi Purge. Apparently no lessons from the Jedi Purges of the Empire, or the anti-Jedi violence of the Yuzzhan Vong War were learned at all. Despite saving the galaxy, usually singlehandedly, a dozen times or more Luke Skywalker is put on trial as a war criminal because his nephew became a Sith Lord and they are holding him, and through him all Jedi, responsible for Jacen Solo's reign of terror. So, the Empire will never really die (no matter how ineptly it is lead) and Jedi will always be persecuted no matter how valiant and selfless of heroes they are because it only takes one in the whole galaxy to fall and suddenly everyone is acting like every Jedi is secretly a Sith, and Luke Skywalker will always save the Galaxy to go right back to having to prove himself and save it all over again next year.
As a runner up:
Star By Star (from 2001). The New Jedi Order novel that has the Vong take Coruscant and forever alter the centerpiece world of the Galaxy, the New Republic government completely collapse (after being portrayed as incompetent boobs so muddled in bureaucracy they demand that the General coordinating the defenses of Coruscant while it is under siege do so right before the Galactic Senate so they can advise and debate on his orders in real time). If you thought there would be no "reset button" after Vector Prime and Chewbacca's Death, this made it much worse and made it more than one major character being killed, the entire Star Wars setting is forever altered here. Since the beginning of Star Wars, it was about restoring the lost glory of the Republic, and this is the novel that throws the Republic right out the window.
Think of the level of progress they reached before technology slowed down. They have FTL drives that can put a starship that is a mile long and holds tens of thousands of people across the galaxy in days or hours, and FTL communications providing real-time communications galaxywide. They have artificial gravity, force fields, and weapons that could easily maul planets into unrecognizable slag. They can clone people so well that the clones don't necessarily know they are clones (Sate Pestage, Ysanne Isard and Bevel Lemelisk were in this situation). They have free-floating holograms. They have reliable and simple antigravity that can make entire cities float permanently. They have medical technology that can cure almost any disease or malady, and prosthetic limbs, internal and sensory organs that are just as good (if not better) than their organic counterparts. They have intelligent (and possibly fully sentient) robots that can fill virtually all servant roles and many technical and highly skilled positions. They also have an order of what are essentially psychic monks that can literally see the future and fight with the power of twenty men, and are devoted to preserving peace and justice.
I wouldn't call the wedding of Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade jumping the shark either, as they had spent years building to that point. Mara Jade was driven to kill Luke when they first met, but that compulsion was eliminated by the end of the novels she appeared in. They spent more than a decade within the setting, and about 5 years or so in the real world.
If I had to focus one one specific point, it would probably be either:
1. Vector Prime. The novel (from 1999) that starts the New Jedi Order series and Yuzzhan Vong War story. Killing Chewbacca off casually, introducing the Vong and making them out to be so much more dangerous and unstoppable than even the Galactic Empire at it's peak, and giving them biotechnology that easily beats out starships developed over thousands of years in a stand-up fight.
2. Outcast. The novel (from 2009) that starts the Fate of the Jedi series. Daala is now the leader of the Galactic Alliance (despite being the most incompetent major Imperial leader), and the galaxy is on the edge of starting yet another Jedi Purge. Apparently no lessons from the Jedi Purges of the Empire, or the anti-Jedi violence of the Yuzzhan Vong War were learned at all. Despite saving the galaxy, usually singlehandedly, a dozen times or more Luke Skywalker is put on trial as a war criminal because his nephew became a Sith Lord and they are holding him, and through him all Jedi, responsible for Jacen Solo's reign of terror. So, the Empire will never really die (no matter how ineptly it is lead) and Jedi will always be persecuted no matter how valiant and selfless of heroes they are because it only takes one in the whole galaxy to fall and suddenly everyone is acting like every Jedi is secretly a Sith, and Luke Skywalker will always save the Galaxy to go right back to having to prove himself and save it all over again next year.
As a runner up:
Star By Star (from 2001). The New Jedi Order novel that has the Vong take Coruscant and forever alter the centerpiece world of the Galaxy, the New Republic government completely collapse (after being portrayed as incompetent boobs so muddled in bureaucracy they demand that the General coordinating the defenses of Coruscant while it is under siege do so right before the Galactic Senate so they can advise and debate on his orders in real time). If you thought there would be no "reset button" after Vector Prime and Chewbacca's Death, this made it much worse and made it more than one major character being killed, the entire Star Wars setting is forever altered here. Since the beginning of Star Wars, it was about restoring the lost glory of the Republic, and this is the novel that throws the Republic right out the window.
