Has this happened to You?

[DMauricio]

Re: Re: Has this happened to You?

As a DM, I actually expect my players to know spell durations and other effects. When in doubt, look up a spells when you are casting it. If you can't keep such things straight, better play a non-caster.

Actually I have a peeve about this.

I don't mind players researching their spells, or double checking the durations and effects... but NOT in the middle of combat.

Even worse is when the spontaneous spell casters have to read spell descriptions mid combat (to find out which spells would be best used)

I don't expect my players to know the rules back to front, or all the spell descriptions back to front, but I do expect some familiarity from people who mainly play spell casters.



Dom

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think your fellow player has been that bad. I guess that when you know a rule and the others are playing it wrong, it must be difficult to shut up for long... The earlier someone points out the mistake, the easier to switch to the correct way. It's nicer to do it at the end of the session, unless it's a very blatant mistake

The first time we played with our DM, he thought that a 5ft step provoked AoO. What would have happened to archers and spellcasters in melee if someone had not told him straight away...

I don't know where exactly the term "rules lawyer" comes from, but I thought that to be a RL you don't just one speak out the rules to the smallest detail, but rather exploit the single wording to justify your points of view. Like the lawyers who used to defend gangsters by finding the tiny fault in the wording of a law and exploit it to strip validity from the trial.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

You know, I was that annoying guy two weeks ago. What I find is that the worst thing you can do when I say something like that is disagree flat out. All that does is make ne more resolute to prove that I'm right. Agree. Start out understanding, then come out with the "but" and hit me with your point. Otherwise I'll feel that you're just being childish. Especially if I'm feeling that the mechanics of the game are getting bent in directions I don't like, I'll jump on situations where I see them getting bent, simply to try to bring some order back into the game. Sometimes I'm right. Often I'm wrong. But when I speak up, it's cause I want to be heard. Hear me out, and I don't mind being wrong.

And, for the next time, after the game, have a word with the player if it's still bothering you.

And on both of our behalfs, I hope he doesn't bring down your game.

 

[nsruf]

Re: Re: Re: Has this happened to You?

What i was alluding to was if he can't keep track of his 2 pieces of paper (tangible, physical--right next to him his own character) why is he worried about when my spell ends?

But...but it is far easier to, say, memorize the entire D&D FAQ then recall where you put your PHB 5 minutes ago. Honestly!



(At least it works that way for me, which is why I can sympathize with the guy.)

We recently had a new player join so, as I was getting things ready for the game, I asked the rules lawyer (since it was only myself, him and the new player) to tell her about what has been happening since her PC would have an idea. He got everything all kinds of messed up...I don't understand is this the way of the rules lawyer?

OK, this is pretty bad. But it doesn't match may own experience: the inattentive players I have gamed with are usually unable to get either the rules or the story straight.

 

[nsruf]

Re: Re: Re: Has this happened to You?

Actually I have a peeve about this.

I don't mind players researching their spells, or double checking the durations and effects... but NOT in the middle of combat.

Admitted, I hate it too when they do it on their turn. I expect them to be ready with their action for the round and do the "research" while it is somebody else's turn - either before or after casting the spell.

Even worse is when the spontaneous spell casters have to read spell descriptions mid combat (to find out which spells would be best used)

This kind of behaviour earns them a turn standing in quiet contemplation They have to make the decision, than look up the details - not the other way round.

Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Lela]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Has this happened to You?

Admitted, I hate it too when they do it on their turn. I expect them to be ready with their action for the round and do the "research" while it is somebody else's turn - either before or after casting the spell.

This is one reason why I've started to call out the next two people on the list. It annoyed me to no end when I found our Druid flipping through the PHB, looking at rules, for minuites on her turn. I mean, that really got to me. Sure I found ways around it then. But now that I call out that her turn's coming, it happens far less.

She was never quite the person who leans forward on her turn and says, "What's going on?" That, I couldn't ever stand. With those I just say, "Kalarn spends six seconds looking aroud to see what's happening, having drifted off momentarilly." But I think the calling out thing would help that too.

 

[med stud]

I think its a basic thing to plan your turn while the others are doing their turns. It's something we picked up when we were playing Axis & Allies, and it has kept going into the RPGs as well.

If someone hasnt made up their turn in advance, they cant expect to be allowed to take a long time thinking out actions ON their turn.

 

[Numion]

I actually think it's good that players chime in on false rules decisions. I'm such a rat bastard DM that I've awarded extra XP to a player who reminded of a rule that actually hinders the PCs group. Like

Player 1: "actually that does provoke AoO"
Me, DM: "Ah, I'd forgotten" .. rolls .. "take 9 pts, player 2!"
Player 2: "thanks a bunch, a-hole!"
Me, DM: "100 xp, player 1"

 

[Quasqueton]

When I DM, I expect the players to help police/enforce the rules of the game. I expect players to know "their" rules (casters should know their spells, etc.). And I will support any player who helps me with the rules, even if it is detrimental to the group as a whole or to an individual player in particular.

If a PC is attacking in the surprise round, I have no problem with a player reminding me that the target gets no Dex bonus on his AC.

If an enemy NPC is attacking a PC in the surprise round, I expect the player to tell me his PC's flatfooted AC, without me having to remind him. I also have no problem with a player reminding another player of this rule when the NPC is attacking the other player's PC. And I expect the other player to hold no animosity towards the "rules lawyer" player. We are all playing by the rules even if there is no "neutral" computer CPU running the combat numbers.

DM: The evil rogue takes a stab at you while you are surprised. What's your AC?

Player 1: AC is 16.

Player 2: [Knowing the PC is only wearing leather armor] You don't get Dex to your AC when flatfooted.

Player 1: Oh, yeah. . . AC is 12.

DM: OK, the rogue hits, take 3 damage.

Player 2: [Figuring there's been a miscalculation] Does that include sneak attack damage.

DM: Oh, I forgot to roll that. . . total damage is 10.

I expect no problems between Players 1 and 2, because all Player 2 was doing is reminding us of core/standard rules we were momentarily forgetting (Player 1 and the DM *should* have taken the correct rule into account without Player 2's needing to comment). I expect Player 2 to be just as helpful when his PC is under the gun. I also expect Player 2 to remind Player 1 that Power Attack deals 2 for 1 damage when Player 1's barbarian crits the BBEG. Etc.

And so a "rules lawyer" can be inaccurate himself at times. It happens to the best of us.

It has nothing to do with role-playing vs. roll-playing. We are playing a game, so when rolling the dice we follow the rules.

Quasqueton

 

[Halivar]

Yeah, I'm typically a rules lawyer myself (played historical minature wargaming for six years before D&D).

Often, the *good* RL will remind the DM of bad things that can happen to his own character. My main character has died three times because I pointed out something the DM forgot or overlooked about the rules.

In the end, rules lawyers are often good DM facilitators, as long as they're not nitpicking the grey-areas (over which DM's should have absolute sway) or arguing about real-life physics.