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Haste question

Grog

First Post
Say a spellcaster casts Confusion on two monsters and they start fighting. Then he casts Haste on them so they'll kill each other faster. Would the monsters receive a saving throw against the Haste in that situation?

Also, why is it that Haste gives a Fort save, but Slow gives a Will save? That seems a bit strange. Shouldn't they be the same type of save?
 

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Darklone

Registered User
Agreed. Yet, Haste save is harmless... and I can't imagine a situation right now where someone would not want to be hasted.
 

Grog

First Post
Darklone said:
Agreed. Yet, Haste save is harmless... and I can't imagine a situation right now where someone would not want to be hasted.

What about the situation in my original post, with the two confused monsters? They probably wouldn't want to be killing each other faster. If they had free will, they'd try to resist the spell (ignore, for the moment, the fact that if they had free will they wouldn't be fighting each other), so my question is, does the confusion negate that?
 


Dross

Explorer
But are they confused enough to trust the unknown caster (who in theory has been fighting them and casting spells against them) to cast a spell that is beneficial to them?

Put it this way, would you force a PC to accept haste from a NPC spellcaster when confused and fighting a friend?

edit: fiend/friend what's the diff?
 

FalcWP

Explorer
Actually, in that case, if they had free will only in regards to whether or not to resist the haste spell, they'd be stupid *to* resist it.

Let's say that the two monsters are alike in every way (lifted straight from the Monster Manual). If we're assuming that Monster A and Monster B are going to fight each other every round that they're confused, then there's a good chance that one or the other will die. It all comes down to luck - each one has a 50% chance of being the survivor.

Now, you're casting Haste on both of them. If they have enough control left to know what's happening and try to resist it, then they're faced with a few different scenarios.

1) Both attempt to resist. Again, we're assuming they're the same, so they have the same chance of resisting. Regardless, we assume that they're either both hasted or both manage to resist, which doesn't change our overall scenario.

2) Monster A attempts to resist, Monster B does not (or vice versa). In this case, we'll assume that Monster A does, in fact, resist (as otherwise, there's no change to our scenario). Monster B is now in a greatly improved position, and his odds of surviving increase dramatically, since he gets all the benefits of Haste and Monster A does not.

3) Neither attempts to resist. Again, they're even, since they're both hasted.

Now, obviously, we would need to determine how much free will they have and how much thought they're capable of while confused. However, every logical solution by a creature motivated by survival (which fits both a confused creature that is striking out against anything near it, and more rational beings) would be to allow the haste spell. If one does choose to not resist, he must trust the other to not resist, which, even if we make it completely random, will only happen 50% of the time. If it does happen, then they each stand a better shot of surviving until the confusion spell wears off. If it does not happen, then the one who does resist is much more likely to die.

Basically, the only reason someone would try to resist the haste would be if they completely trusted the other person to also resist. And, if you're so confused that you're attacking said person in the first place, I don't think your mind is clear enough to make that decision. At that point, it would really be more of a primal, survival-first thing, which says "Haste me before the other guy kills me!"

Now, this does assume that they can differentiate between a beneficial and a harmful spell. An easy way to do it might be things like Sense Motive or Spellcraft, but, again, mind isn't all that clear. Could also just have them determine randomly if they want to resist it. Or, in the case of a confused PC... just tell them that a spell is being cast on them. Do *not* tell them what it is.
 

Elethiomel

First Post
*Even if* they both trust the other completely to resist should they want it, it would be in both their best interests to be hasted. Something in the vicinity is trying to make them kill each other, after all. This means that the surviving monster will probably have to fight something else. The surviving monster will be better off fighting something else if it is hasted.
 

bestone

First Post
My opinion on this subject, why is there a save on haste if its benefitial?

because unless they are spellcasters and succeed on a spellcraft check, you arent gonna have a frigin clue what they are casting on you

If some hostile mage walked up to me and explained he's gonna haste me, and that i should just let him touch me, i think i'd be inclined to say...no.

So yes, i'd give them a save
 

Nail

First Post
Me too.

Being Confused does not carry with it the condition "friendly to the spell caster". It's not a Charm spell, after all. Since the targets are not friendly, and since they do not really know what spell the wizard is casting (even if he tells them), they will try to save.
 

Grog

First Post
bestone said:
My opinion on this subject, why is there a save on haste if its benefitial?

because unless they are spellcasters and succeed on a spellcraft check, you arent gonna have a frigin clue what they are casting on you

I don't think it works that way. If a mage in your party casts Finger of Death on you, you still get a save against it, even if he told you he was going to cast Haste instead and you believed him. So you must get at least some sort of inkling of what the spell is going to do before you decide whether or not to try to resist it.
 

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