Have the third-party d20 publishers failed?

[barsoomcore]

Belen, you haven't demonstrated WHY anyone should publish adventures. You said it would improve sales -- and yet those people who are observing the sales say otherwise. Why do you disagree with them? Are they misreading their own statistics? Or do you think they are not representative of the majority of publishers? Has to be one or the other, and you have demonstrate which and why if you want anyone to agree with you.

Certainly what publishers in this thread have been saying is consistent with what publishers have been saying in any other thread I've read on this topic. And is consistent with what my research into publishing my own material reveals.

High profit margins in ANY industry are rare, and usually due to specific conditions that don't last. If you're publishing materials with a massive profit margin then that means you've found a niche where people will pay lots of money for cheaply produced goods -- and THAT means other publishers will come charging in as soon as they realise what you're onto, and start driving prices and margins down. It is a very rare company in any industry that can afford much increase in its cost of doing business.

Why should companies consolidate to produce adventures, except that you think adventures are important? They're not profitable and they don't drive sales of other products, so why should anyone bother trying to make them?

 

[Faraer]

coyote6, I'm sure that's a major factor too. But if adventures don't drive sales of other books, why does WotC publish so many free web ones? My understanding is that however profitable or unprofitable individually, modules are fundamental to building a game or setting's culture and community. I don't doubt that 'sourcebooks sell better than adventures' is (currently) true, but that doesn't translate to 'adventures are almost always unprofitable', which seems to be some people's self-fulfilling prophecy. There are always many ways to analyze sales figures: look at Wizards' dogmatic assumption that Lords of Darkness sold less than Magic of Faerûn not because it was targeted at DMs only but because it was less 'crunchy'.

 

[MonsterMash]

Thinking in terms of economic theory publishing for D20/D&D games is a highly contestable market, the entry and exit costs for a new publisher (especially PDFs) are low so generally prices are low and very near cost because unless you a WotC with a major corporate behind it and the distribution, sales and marketing channels that implies most D20 publishers are very much one man and a dog outfits.

To go back on topic adventures naturally have a limited market as only one person per group of gamers is likely to buy them, so that drops it to 20% of the market or so immediately, without allowing for DM who have time and preference to use homebrewed materials.

But back when D&D got established modules were unknown, so you had to homebrew or not have anything to do with those three books in the box. If people want to play then not having published adventures won't stop them, though I will admit people are more used to being spoon fed rather than having to do things themselves these days.

I don't think third party publishers have failed, but what we had was a short term boom where nearly anything would sell followed by the current period of consolidation where the good companies survive and the others fail or withdraw from the market.

 

[2WS-Steve]

Keep in mind also that any company trying to sell an adventure has to compete with Dungeon Magazine selling 3-5 of them in a bundle for about 6 bucks.

 

[Pramas]

For example, Green Ronin's Blue Rose setting really needs a few support adventures. You cannot create a setting targeted at the ladies and not give them any idea of how to run the game.

Well, it's a good thing there's an adventure right there in the core book. It's almost like we planned it.

 

[Aristotle]

If that many publishers are one book away from going under, then they should consider a different business, or look into a different business model.

What? That's what small business is all about. You take the risks to do what you really want to do, and if your good enough you might see your business grow. I'd add that several of these smaller publishers (who may or may not be in the 'one book away...' category) have produced really good sourcebooks. Your saying if they can produce excellent source material but can't afford the additional associated risks of publishing adventures they should pack up and move on!?

This doesn't even take into account that sometimes the more established companies that run into similar financial situations. Anybody remember FASA? They had viable products but were still running into the red (on certain product lines), and ultimately they shut down. You can blame their business plan, but these folks were in the business of role playing.

If adventures are that bad a deal, then companies should consolidate and work together to produce them, so that the expense is shared. Where there is a will....

This isn't so bad an idea. A few companies have worked together to produce complimentary source material. I would think that a co-produced project would be a little harder to manage between two random companies. They would need similar views, business strategies, and design philosophies. They would have to be willing to share ownership of the final project. And lastly they would still have to deal with the fact that adventure sales are almost always lower than sourcebook sales. (so why not get together and make the product that'll make them both more money?)

Industry folks are saying that adventures don't sell. There are years of statistics backing them up, and the only argument I'm hearing against that is 'they need a better business plan'. It comes down to put-up or shut-up. If you're certain you can build a better business plan (that allows for the production of top notch adventures) then you should either put it into action yourself or draft a formal propsal and submit it to an established publisher.

 

[Malachi_rc]

The kids will learn the same way I did. I started in 80 but it was not until 85 that I ran a module. We never had anyone showing us, we stumbled threough it and had fun. Kids today at least have video games and other media to show them how an adventure fits together.

Personally, I find i have to spend a year or two breaking people of bad habits they picked up from video games. Leveling and power levels are the biggest two, and i find it hard to get people into a non-mp spell system.

 

[Stone Angel]

BelenUmeria I think you have a good valid point. We have so many prestige classes. My players just look for ones that allow them to munchin a little bit more(if that is possible). I think that a real kick kiester adventure should be the soul of every campaign. Will you have to add stuff to it. Yes. That is why the modules say to read them thouroughly at the beginning. Do I always do that. No. But a good adventure that gets the group excited, I mean on fire. Like does not want to quit playing at four in the morning becuase they are having so much fun. Yes these adventures are out there. Lets say said adventure contains an enemy or ally "The Blind Bowmen" and they are so cool one of your players wants to be one. So instead of a little blurb at the end of the module. You buy a source or corebook that has all the info you need including why they remove there eyes as a sign of devotion to the city they defend. Info on the city. And it spreads from there. Now you have a place to go after the adventure.

Now I know that it doesn't always work like this and most of the time doesn't. I am like buttercup "Jungle, but I don't have any info on the jungle. Hold on lets take a break so I can make up something for the --e-re-r0-0-0 Jungle". But I really like the idea BelenUmeria, I like it alot.

The Seraph of Earth and Stone

 

[philreed]

A lot of your favorite companies are one book away from going under.

This is very true. There should be a "publisher appreciation day" where gamers get out there and support the companies they want to see survive. And I'm not talking about GenCon -- a lot of companies lose money by going to the big cons.

I think the average RPG fan would be shocked at not only how many publishers but exactly which publishers are close to shutting down.

 

[philreed]

BelenUmeria I think you have a good valid point. We have so many prestige classes.

And as long as prestige classes continue to sell there will be new prestige classes. And feats. And spells. Basically, everything that people complain about will keep appearing because it's the best-selling type of material.

If you really don't want prestige classes then don't buy them. Vote with your wallet. If you want adventures, get out there and buy the hundreds of adventures already available and show the publishers what you want.

As it is, adventures are a waste of time and money for most publishers.