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D&D 5E Have you experienced very high-level (18+) play in 5e? Tell me about it!

Yep, we'll see how it works out. When designing a monster that is supposed to be deadly for a 20th level party I don't want to assume that they've already been through a bunch of fights. Pretty sure that isn't how other monsters were designed.

Thats exactly how the monsters are designed. To be featured in one (of many) encounters in a single adventuring day.

The whole game is based around the assumption that in a standard adventuring day [the time between long resting] you have to deal with multiple encounters.

For example look at a party of 5 x 1st level PCs. According to the DMG they have an adventuring day XP budget of 1500 xp. A single Ogre is a 'hard' encounter for this group, and eats up 450 of those 1,500 xp.

This doesnt just apply to monsters. It also applies to classes. Some classes are short rest dependent for resources (fighter, warlock, monk) and some are long rest dependent (barbarian, paladin, full casters). A single encounter adventuring day leaves your warlock with a few spells to cast; your wizard has his full complement to nova with. Your fighter gets the one action surge; your paladin can nova smite on every single attack that hits. And so forth.

The classes dont balance around single encounter adventuring days, and neither do the monsters and encounters.
 

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valarmorgulis

First Post
I think we're talking past each other a bit.

When the ogre was given a CR, it was done so based entirely on its own stats and not on whether the designers thought the ogre would be encountered early or late in the adventuring day.

The same applies to my creations. I will build them and then determine their CR. As I want them to be "deadly" encounters, they will need a CR of 24+. But it seems like WotC underestimated high-level PCs in that CR 24 monsters are not very deadly when fighting solo. So once I create a monster that is "deadly", I will figure out what the CR is.
 

valarmorgulis

First Post
Here's an example: Let's say I was designing "the" Demogorgon. Sure, I could assume that the 20th-level PCs will only meet him after fighting legions of his servants, and therefore they will only have about 18% of their resources by the time they encounter him. So, I make him "deadly" for PCs who are extremely low on resources. But then a bunch of DMs see Demogorgon's stats and go "why is he so weak? My PCs could easily crush him". I think it's better to design Demogorgon to be a deadly challenge for those PCs when they are at full power and leave it to the DM to ensure that: a) the PCs have sufficient resources by the time they fight him, or b) have a way to weaken him so that he, too, is fighting without full resources.
 

When the ogre was given a CR, it was done so based entirely on its own stats and not on whether the designers thought the ogre would be encountered early or late in the adventuring day.

No, it wasnt. It was given that CR in expectation of the fact it would be one of many encounters in that adventuring day.

Monster CR is given within the context of the 6-8 encounter adventuring day.

Removing a monster from that context, alters the challenge. Your players can now engage in nova strikes against it, likley killing it inside a round or two.

The same applies to my creations. I will build them and then determine their CR. As I want them to be "deadly" encounters, they will need a CR of 24+. But it seems like WotC underestimated high-level PCs in that CR 24 monsters are not very deadly when fighting solo. So once I create a monster that is "deadly", I will figure out what the CR is.

Wizards didnt underestimate high level monsters; they just expected them to be fought as one piece of a longer adventuring day. The challenge in 5E is not winning/ surviving [individual encounters]; the challenge is winning/ surviving [the adventuring day].

The disparity in power you're noting here is because you havent figured this out yet. You're running 1-2 encounter adventuring days. Accordingly your PCs can nova (dropping smites/ action surges/ 9th level spells) at will. High level PCs with a lot of magic items nova striking can dish out hundreds of damage each round. They'll cream single encounter adventuring days unless you make them Deadly++++ (in which case the game becomes a glorified game of rocket tag, and you devalue the crap out of fighters, monks and warlocks).
 

Here's an example: Let's say I was designing "the" Demogorgon. Sure, I could assume that the 20th-level PCs will only meet him after fighting legions of his servants, and therefore they will only have about 18% of their resources by the time they encounter him. So, I make him "deadly" for PCs who are extremely low on resources. But then a bunch of DMs see Demogorgon's stats and go "why is he so weak? My PCs could easily crush him". I think it's better to design Demogorgon to be a deadly challenge for those PCs when they are at full power and leave it to the DM to ensure that: a) the PCs have sufficient resources by the time they fight him, or b) have a way to weaken him so that he, too, is fighting without full resources.

No, you just stat him up as normal, with an appropriate CR based on the guidelines in the DMG. This CR is appropriate for him within the context of the 6-8 encounter adventuring day.

In other words, its an appropriate CR for him considering the PCs will likely have fought several encounters prior to fighting him (and be low on resources), or will have to face several encounters afterwards (thus limiting resource usage when they fight him so they dont run out later on).

Youre removing this context from CR. Its a fundamental part of 5E's math and encounter design and challenge rating process (and class balance).
 

valarmorgulis

First Post
So are you saying it's not possible to do a deadly encounter at the beginning of the adventuring day? If you have the PCs fight a deadly encounter at the beginning of the day, with the assumption that they fight several more encounters afterwards, how then is it still a deadly encounter?

I fully understand your point of view about 5e's game design, but I don't think we need to be completely boxed in by it. If it's not possible to design a deadly solo encounter that assumes the PCs aren't low on resources, then that's a problem with the game design and one that I want to explore finding a fix for.

Many games work fine without this heavy reliance on encounter budgets. I played 1e/2e/3e for decades without worrying about this kind of stuff and I bet there's a way to do the same with 5e.
 

valarmorgulis

First Post
So are you saying it's not possible to do a deadly encounter at the beginning of the adventuring day? If you have the PCs fight a deadly encounter at the beginning of the day, with the assumption that they fight several more encounters afterwards, how then is it still a deadly encounter?

I fully understand your point of view about 5e's game design, but I don't think we need to be completely boxed in by it. If it's not possible to design a deadly solo encounter that assumes the PCs aren't low on resources, then that's a problem with the game design and one that I want to explore finding a fix for.

Many games work fine without this heavy reliance on encounter budgets. I played 1e/2e/3e for decades without worrying about this kind of stuff and I bet there's a way to do the same with 5e.

Note that my ogre example was specifically about whether the ogre would be encountered early or late in the adventuring day, not whether or not it would be the only encounter.

With regards to nova-ing, PCs are going to save those nova abilities for the BBEG regardless. And if you force them to use them before getting to the BBEG, well that's just a lame RP experience for them. They *want* to use those super abilities in the final battle, and therefore those final bosses should be able to survive it with the understanding that those abilities still really helped win the fight.
 
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So are you saying it's not possible to do a deadly encounter at the beginning of the adventuring day?

No thats not what I'm saying at all.

Im saying that monster CR's, class balance, and encounter XP budgets are based around an adventuring day [the time between long rests] featuring around 6-8 encounters, of an appoximate XP budget, and with enough time for around 2-3 short rests.

If you're only throwing the one encounter at the party, it messes with all of the above. It throws class balance out of whack, it lets PCs nova strike encounters (and they'll all create nova builds to exploit this fact) with impunity, and it devalues monster CR's (which are assigned within the 6-8 encounter adventuring day paradigm).

The natural response at this point is to 'ramp up encounter difficulty'. Which is (of course) stupid. This not only entrenches the above problems (it mandates nova strikes just to stay alive), it creates a really boring and mindless game of rocket tag where the first to initiative, wins.

I fully understand your point of view about 5e's game design, but I don't think we need to be completely boxed in by it. If it's not possible to design a deadly solo encounter that assumes the PCs aren't low on resources, then that's a problem with the game design and one that I want to explore finding a fix for.

Im not saying you do need to be completely boxed in by it. From time to time run a single encounter adventuring day (the full casters, barbarians and paladins should dominate). From time to time you should also run adventuring days with more than 6-8 encounters (rogues and champion fighters come into the spotlight here). From time to time you should increase (or decrease) the amount and frequencies of short rests in your game as well.

Mix it up. Keep the players guessing. Keep the longer adventuring days coming with enough frequency that your players police their own resource expenditure, and avoid nova strikes.

Im saying here that if you want to run an experiment of 'How 5E runs at high level' its rather pointless conducting your experiment outside of the context of the multiple encounter adventuring day that class balance, CRs and encounter design is based around.

Many games work fine without this heavy reliance on encounter budgets. I played 1e/2e/3e for decades without worrying about this kind of stuff and I bet there's a way to do the same with 5e.

Yeah. Use the gritty realism variant. This supports game days featuring 1-3 encounters at most, with those days interpersed with days of nothing.

Note that my ogre example was specifically about whether the ogre would be encountered early or late in the adventuring day, not whether or not it would be the only encounter.

It doesnt matter really. If its the 1st encounter of the adventuring day (room 1 of the dungeon) then the PCs will likely have to hold back on using those resources (saving some gas in the tank to take down the rest of the adventuring days monsters). If its the final encounter of the adventuring day, then likely those resources will have already been used overcoming earlier encounters.

Remember; 5E DnD is a marathon and not a sprint.

This can also work in single encounter adventuring days, but only in campaigns where the DM regularly imposes 6-8 encounters on his party. The players come to expect muliple encounters in a single adventuring day, and withold resources accordingly instead of nova dumping everything in round one of the encounter.
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
But... they really shouldnt be reaching the BBEG with full resources. Thats what his minions are for. Its fair to assume Orcus, Tiamat, Grazzt etc have the resources available to them that simply walking up to them and attacking them is all but impossible (even for high level PCs) to achieve.
This. High-level or not, PCs aren't supposed to be encountering Orcus in an open field. And "scry and fry" isn't the strategy it used to be.

So are you saying it's not possible to do a deadly encounter at the beginning of the adventuring day? If you have the PCs fight a deadly encounter at the beginning of the day, with the assumption that they fight several more encounters afterwards, how then is it still a deadly encounter?
You can make them spend resources with a deadly encounter, but I wouldn't expect to drop any PCs with it. The fight just doesn't last long enough to burn through everything they can throw at an adversary. Not for my group, anyway. Now, some DMs here (*cough*@pukunui*cough*) can apparently kill PCs just by looking at them funny, so maybe they have tips on how to do it.
 
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cmad1977

Hero
Yep, we'll see how it works out. When designing a monster that is supposed to be deadly for a 20th level party I don't want to assume that they've already been through a bunch of fights. Pretty sure that isn't how other monsters were designed.

Pretty sure the creatures in the MM were designed with exactly that in mind.


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