Have you tried out spell points?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm fishing for experience in using the spell point system given in Unearthed Arcana. I want to know what you think of the system, whether you've used and enjoyed it, and specifically I'd like to know the following:

1. Do you run into problems with characters running out of spell points quickly (a la psions) due to having to scale damage dice?

2. Sorcerers only get a few extra points beyond what wizards/druids/clerics get. Does this cripple the sorcerer's main advantage over the wizard--staying power?

3. What does play look like at higher levels? With potentially hundreds of 1st-level spells each day, how do spell point casters divide up their resources?

4. And lastly, if you have mixed spell points with psionics, how do spellcasters rate against psions when the spellcasters cast from a point pool?

 

[Khaalis]

1. Do you run into problems with characters running out of spell points quickly (a la psions) due to having to scale damage dice?

In my experience this is always an issue with a point system. Points always seem to drain faster than slots. I am not yet sure if it is due to the scaling factor or if it is simply because the greater flexibility tends to a heavier reliance on spells because slots set a caster into a more conservative casting mode than points do. I think it is harder for casters to "pace" themselves with points than with slots, but I personally prefer spell-points to slots for some classes.

2. Sorcerers only get a few extra points beyond what wizards/druids/clerics get. Does this cripple the sorcerer's main advantage over the wizard--staying power?

Personally, I prefer that not ALL classes gain spell points. I tend to grant spell-point pools based on the style of magic involved. For example, a wizard needs to sit down and prepare spells ahead of time. This to me seems to be a perfect match for spell slots. The wizard is basically picking the spells they have prepared that day. Sorcerers on the other hand are simply a magic battery that knows how to form a select few spell effects with their innate power. Perfect candidate for spell points.

On the divine side, Clerics must sit and pray ahead of time for the spells they wish to carry that day. Also perfect for a slot system. Druids however, do not pray for their spells, they draw their power from the forces of nature. Thus, I would grant Druids spell-points.

As for the specific amount of points acquired reflecting the classes...I think that once again, WotC poorly implements the Sorcerer. The Cleric, Druid, Wizard table gives a major boost to these classes, giving them much more flexibility than a sorcerer since their "Spells Known" can change from day to day and gain nearly the same amount of spell points. Yet another reason I do not care for ALL classes converting to spell-points.

3. What does play look like at higher levels? With potentially hundreds of 1st-level spells each day, how do spell point casters divide up their resources?

In my experience, you dont have to worry about hundreds of 1st level spells. Remember that a caster needs to spend 9 Spell Points to cast a fully effective Magic Missle. As for dividing their resources, it completely depends on what the characters are confronted with and the spells available. Overall the point system is more flexible and is not as hard for casters to allocate whent hey will and wont cast a spell. If you want a caster's life to be harder use slots, if easier use points.

Another consideration is that you shouldn't allow certain spells like Wish to be cast this way as it can quickly unblance the game (not that it doesn't anyway).

4. And lastly, if you have mixed spell points with psionics, how do spellcasters rate against psions when the spellcasters cast from a point pool?

What do you mean by 'rate'? By what criteria?
In my criteria, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. I dont think I would say one is better than the other.

Hope that helps some.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What do you mean by 'rate'? By what criteria?
In my criteria, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. I dont think I would say one is better than the other.

Thanks for the reply.

What I meant by this is that psionic characters have a spell system that is built for power points. Wizards and sorcerers do not. In the thread concerning the psion vs. wizard issue, a few things came up for comparison between them. The psion gets essentially capless scaling, the ability to cast many high level powers at the expense of low level powers, the augmentation system, and the ability to freely switch damage types on the energy spells. The arcane casters get free damage scaling, larger repertoire (for the wizard at least) and more versatile metamagic (usable more often). This is how I read the comparison. However, under a spell point system, arcane casters lose the free damage scaling, and the metamagic system changes as well.

What I want to know is whether (assuming for the sake of argument that the psion was well-balanced against the wizard and sorcerer) this change gives an advantage to psionic characters since they're seemingly better "naturalized" to a point system, while the arcane casters (and divine casters, for that matter) are kind of shoehorned into it.

 

[Khaalis]

What I want to know is whether (assuming for the sake of argument that the psion was well-balanced against the wizard and sorcerer) this change gives an advantage to psionic characters since they're seemingly better "naturalized" to a point system, while the arcane casters (and divine casters, for that matter) are kind of shoehorned into it.

Well in my personal opinion, I cant say if the classes are "balanced" or not as I am not sure the core classes are all that balanced to begin with. However, in your comparison, the standard classes are definately not over-shadowed by the psionic classes in my opinion. The versatility advantage is still more than sufficient to overcome any advantage the psionic classes might have being designed to use a point system.

The UA also covers all of the necessary issues with points such as metamagic cost and scaling. The only issue I might see is that I think the core class spell points may be lacking compared to the psionic classes, but I guess it depends on how much power you wish the classes to have. One thing I might over-rule is the Non-stacking rule. This is one thing the psionic classes (if I understand them correctly) do not have. All Power Points stack, yet the Spell Points dont. I understand the desire to keep the classes separate, but this might be one area it lacks in. Personal choice again, and probably based on the reasoning of WHY you are granting spell points vs spell slots.

Overall, I personally dont see a very bid imballance to the spell point system. Its more a matter of personal taste and person view of what is or isnt too powerful.

For example: Which is more powerful in your opion?

A 6th level classic Sorcerer that can cast:
-- 6 0-level / 6 1st-level / 5 2nd-level / 3 3rd-level

Or a 6th level SP Sorcerer that can cast:
-- 6 0-level / 1 1st-level / 1 2nd-level / 5 3rd-level

Hope that helps.

 

[mercucio]

Love the Spell Point System

Khaalis,

To be honest, I wish they'd have used spell points for the core spellcasting system. My friends and I have been using a mana/spell point system since the days of second edition. We've been playing with spell points for a while and have not noticed any major problems. We do not have anyone playing a psion, so I can not comment on their effectiveness.

We also play with the optional fatigue/exhaustion rules and (when I DM, anyways =) and the risking dropping to fatigued/exhausted in the middle of combat has my made our spellcasting players a little more conservative on how they spend their SP.

 

[Iuz]

In my experience this is always an issue with a point system. Points always seem to drain faster than slots. I am not yet sure if it is due to the scaling factor or if it is simply because the greater flexibility tends to a heavier reliance on spells because slots set a caster into a more conservative casting mode than points do. I think it is harder for casters to "pace" themselves with points than with slots, but I personally prefer spell-points to slots for some classes.

Interesting observation; it goes hand in hand with changes I've been trying with the hp system. (I feel that some players are not as careful with their lives as they might be because they have trouble gauging how much trouble they are in)

 

[Kelleris]

Well, I've played a SPUB in the past - that would be a spell-point-using Bard - and found it to be acceptable. I ran out of points faster than slots, and my DM was planning on giving me more points, but we didn't get to play enough for me to be comfortable with picking a percentage. In any case, it didn't imperil my effectiveness as a ninja too much.

As far as the Psion goes, the rules in UA and the XPH give Sorcerers fewer spell points, fewer spells known, and more restrictive scaling and casting than Psions. Draw your own conclusions.

EDIT: Checked my book - Sorcs get 249 points at level 20, compared to 343 for the Psion. Psions take the lead starting at 2nd level, and it just keeps getting wider. Oddly, though, Sorcs have only 17 more spell points than Wizards at 20th level. Huh?

 

[Interested2]

.

At low levels, spell points are a waste of effort, IMO. At high levels though, I wouldn't play spellcasters any other way.

 

[Kelleris]

Khaalis, what versatility advantage are you referring to? Compared to Sorcerers, Psions get augmentations for a variety of effects and free save DC scaling, more powers, and a bonus feat progression. Looks like versatility goes to the Psion on all counts.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

To be honest, I wish they'd have used spell points for the core spellcasting system. My friends and I have been using a mana/spell point system since the days of second edition. We've been playing with spell points for a while and have not noticed any major problems. We do not have anyone playing a psion, so I can not comment on their effectiveness.

But perhaps you can comment on how wizards and sorcerers compare to each other under the spell point system...or does using the fatigue/exhaustion rules throw a wrench into that comparison?