HD... as a class? (Bot9S)

[Jimlock]

In the Tome of Battle for Dummies handbook from BG (old link in case the new one is only allowed to members), the author mentions the following:

Tome of Battle is probably the single most dip-friendly supplement that WotC has ever produced. This is because of the simple and elegant mechanic whereby 1/2 your HD in non-Martial Adept classes (or Racial HD) are added to your Initiator Level.

Now, in the Bot9S it only mentions that a martial adept counts half his class levels when adding to his initiator level. As far as I know, there is nowhere a mention of HD or Racial HD as the author of the handbook claims... but perhaps I'm missing something?

The only "official" source I could find which answers some Bot9S stuff was this: Tome of Battle Q&A, but even there, there is nothing added or clarified in respect to this rule.

???

 

[emoplato]

Well, first off what are you specifically asking? As for general things, yes Tome of Battle rules allows to count half of you non-adept as initiator level. However, initiator level isn't like advancing casting, manifester level...etc all initiator level allows you to do is increase effectiveness of certain maneuvers and qualify for higher level maneuvers. It does not give you more maneuvers known or readied, that is another chart entirely. An example would be when you would take the martial study feat you can select any expendable maneuver of the selected discipline in which you qualify for at half initiator level. This maneuver though cannot be one that requires multiple maneuvers known because you only know one.

 

[kitcik]

I would allow it.

Sadly, no one has elected me MoDM.

EDIT: He is asking if racial hit dice impact your initiator level. I believe he understands what an initiator level is.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Looking thru Bo9S, applicable text includes:

p.31-32 (Martial Study Feat):
-"...If you do not have martial adept levels, you can use this maneuver once per encounter as a martial adept with an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level."

p.39:
-"If you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level."

-"Even when you gain levels in a class that does not grant martial maneuvers, your understanding of martial maneuvers increases."

-"...determine yourt initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes."

-"This applies to all of a character's levels, whether they are in martial adept classes or other classes."

p.154 (Reth Dekala monster):
-hp 37 (5 HD)
-Initiator level 5

p.157 (Valkyrie monster):
-hp 115 (11 HD)
-Initiator level 10

So... I have no idea. The first 2 lines refer to "Character level", which means you might be able to consider ECL for the purpose of Initiator levels. The next 3 lines are Class level specific. The examples from the monsters with initiator levels are inconclusive.

I've not seen anything that says stright HD count.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Is there any source that says Racial HD count as Class HD? I don't know of any.

 

[Jimlock]

Well, first off what are you specifically asking? As for general things, yes Tome of Battle rules allows to count half of you non-adept as initiator level. However, initiator level isn't like advancing casting, manifester level...etc all initiator level allows you to do is increase effectiveness of certain maneuvers and qualify for higher level maneuvers. It does not give you more maneuvers known or readied, that is another chart entirely. An example would be when you would take the martial study feat you can select any expendable maneuver of the selected discipline in which you qualify for at half initiator level. This maneuver though cannot be one that requires multiple maneuvers known because you only know one.

I would allow it.

Sadly, no one has elected me MoDM.

EDIT: He is asking if racial hit dice impact your initiator level. I believe he understands what an initiator level is.

Yes I do understand what initiator level is. As kitcik says, I'm asking whether HD counts as a class (a non martial adept class in our case) for the purpose of increasing initiator level... or not.

Looking thru Bo9S, applicable text includes:

p.31-32 (Martial Study Feat):
-"...If you do not have martial adept levels, you can use this maneuver once per encounter as a martial adept with an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level."

p.39:
-"If you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level."

Well argued... still, those are feat rules.

-"Even when you gain levels in a class that does not grant martial maneuvers, your understanding of martial maneuvers increases."

-"...determine yourt initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes."

Exactly those are the only lines I know of... HD is not mentioned.

I've not seen anything that says stright HD count.

Me neither....

In this other relevant thread they mention that UA has such a rule. I'll check it out...

Even so, as much as I agree with such a ruling, it is still not RAW... or RAI.

Wondering why the handbook writer mentions it without the slightest doubt....

 

[Jimlock]

and there's this as well:

Level-Adjusted Races

....well...

 

[Jimlock]

hmmmm.... now this looks like evidence...

SRD:

Monsters As Races

Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Humanoids and Class Levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels.A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

p.31-32 (Martial Study Feat):
-"...If you do not have martial adept levels, you can use this maneuver once per encounter as a martial adept with an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level."

p.39:
-"If you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level."

Well argued... still, those are feat rules.

The p.39 first line is actually not about the feat, but the start of the multiclass rules. It's clumped together with the other lines that clearly refer to "Class".

hmmmm.... now this looks like evidence...

SRD:

There you go, if there is any evidence saying Racial HD can count as Class HD, then there is some ground to stand on. So far, this ground seems pretty shakey.

If, at the end of this conversation, the conclusion ends up that HD count, I'm sooo taking a dragon and giving it one level of Swordsage.