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Heal Skill
- Thread starter Sadrik
- Start date
Bladesinger_Boy
First Post
Sleeping & HP recovery 1/4 + further 1/4 bonuses if...
Could we spin this into some heal surges type mechanic? Healing surges really expect characters to have lower HP overall (then standard 3.x), but always entering battle at full HP and that resting for the day cures all HP.
I like the idea that, out-of-battle, characters can heal themselves.
Is it too broken as is to make characters fully heal from taking a full rest (like sleeping at night)? Sadrick, could 1/4 be the base amounst to heal at night when full resting, and another 1/4 per each of the following effects:
- successful heal check (DC 10 + Level + 5 if below 1/2 HP)
- proper bedding supplies or magical hearth effect (like Hearthful Rest spell)
- no adventuring that day (more specific restrictions: no attacking, offensive spellcasting, crafting, or doing any movement faster than a standard move. Walking around and talking to people seems fine)
Could we spin this into some heal surges type mechanic? Healing surges really expect characters to have lower HP overall (then standard 3.x), but always entering battle at full HP and that resting for the day cures all HP.
I like the idea that, out-of-battle, characters can heal themselves.
Is it too broken as is to make characters fully heal from taking a full rest (like sleeping at night)? Sadrick, could 1/4 be the base amounst to heal at night when full resting, and another 1/4 per each of the following effects:
- successful heal check (DC 10 + Level + 5 if below 1/2 HP)
- proper bedding supplies or magical hearth effect (like Hearthful Rest spell)
- no adventuring that day (more specific restrictions: no attacking, offensive spellcasting, crafting, or doing any movement faster than a standard move. Walking around and talking to people seems fine)
Sadrik
First Post
No. I don't like the surge mechanic. You can I personally don't like non-magically recovered HP in the midst of a battle and I don't like capping your maximum daily healing like the surge system does.
This is only affecting the following rule. Instead of 2 HP/level or 4 HP/level it is 1/4 HP or 1/2 HP.
This is only affecting the following rule. Instead of 2 HP/level or 4 HP/level it is 1/4 HP or 1/2 HP.
SRD said:
Bladesinger_Boy
First Post
What if it wasn't any in-combat healing, only resting and out of combat healing? Should anyone other than the healing spellcasters be able to heal themselves?
I'm leaning towards yes, because it promotes less reliance on the cleric as healer. Maybe the Cleric, Bard, Druid should be seen as more the BATTLE Healers, while every has some ability for RESTING Healing at least themselves.
Part of what I like about healing surge type mechanics is lower HP overall, but more frequent and distributed healing access. The assumption of healing as a more finite, less renewable resource creates this grey area where PCs may or may not enter combat at full HP... but for mid to high level PCs, the answer is certainly "Yes, full HP". Full HP is too much. Having PCs go through more up and down HP flux is more dramatic.
Maybe I'm reverse engineering the demand for healing surges (or special heal checks or whatever) out of the need to reduce full HP totals but still allow PCs to not die. I also don't like pidgeon-holing classes into one possible role and more healing among various party members promotes that.
I'm leaning towards yes, because it promotes less reliance on the cleric as healer. Maybe the Cleric, Bard, Druid should be seen as more the BATTLE Healers, while every has some ability for RESTING Healing at least themselves.
Part of what I like about healing surge type mechanics is lower HP overall, but more frequent and distributed healing access. The assumption of healing as a more finite, less renewable resource creates this grey area where PCs may or may not enter combat at full HP... but for mid to high level PCs, the answer is certainly "Yes, full HP". Full HP is too much. Having PCs go through more up and down HP flux is more dramatic.
Maybe I'm reverse engineering the demand for healing surges (or special heal checks or whatever) out of the need to reduce full HP totals but still allow PCs to not die. I also don't like pidgeon-holing classes into one possible role and more healing among various party members promotes that.
Sadrik
First Post
I am not impressed. Again, I don't like maxing out healing for a character by day. Having some HP come back after a fight with a heal check or something, perhaps 1/8th with a DC 15 check. I would not be opposed to it but still I think in this area it makes the most sense to just keep it as is cure spells heal HP and so does long term care.
Bladesinger_Boy
First Post
healing spells in 1/4 increments?
Maybe 1/8 or some fraction other than 1/4 is the right answer.
Remember, 4E isn't also 1/4 (relative numbers). They also have things like potions that heal a set amount of HP, like 10 (static number).
Is 1/4 too much? Is 1/8 the answer? I think the lowest possible value is 1/10. I think 1/4 is the max base amount, though maybe powerful effects could heal more (2/4, 3/4).
Okay, different line of thinking, but what if healing effects similarly had either a static number (or rolled number) OR a fraction, like 1/4? I'm thining this:
- cure moderate wounds: 2d8+10 OR +1/4 HP
- cure critical wounds: 4d8 +20 OR +1/2 HP
- heal: 150 OR +3/4 HP
I guess if we say that cure mod heals +1/4 HP, then we can say cure serious can heal 1/4 too. This would also affect Mass Cure Moderate Wounds (+1/4), Mass Cure Critical Wounds (+1/2), and Mass Heal (+3/4). And Mass Cure Serious Wounds (+1/4).
I know this is all separate from potions and healing surges, but I thought I would include it.
Does anyone else think the caster level bonus to healing spells are weird, especially the Mass versions which range from +25 to +40 caster level... then followed by the 9th level spell Mass Heal which goes to capping at 25 caster level. Just plain weird and inconsistent. What about something like this to revamp things:
SPELL LEVEL_____CASTER LEVEL CAP
1 Cure Light....................+5
2 Cure Mod.....................+10
3 Mass Cure Mod.............+10
3 Cure Serious................+15
4 Cure Critical.................+20
5 Mass Cure Mod.............+20
6 Heal...........................+20
7 Mass Cure Serious........+25
8 Mass Cure Critical.........+25
9 Mass Heal...................+30
Maybe 1/8 or some fraction other than 1/4 is the right answer.
Remember, 4E isn't also 1/4 (relative numbers). They also have things like potions that heal a set amount of HP, like 10 (static number).
Is 1/4 too much? Is 1/8 the answer? I think the lowest possible value is 1/10. I think 1/4 is the max base amount, though maybe powerful effects could heal more (2/4, 3/4).
Okay, different line of thinking, but what if healing effects similarly had either a static number (or rolled number) OR a fraction, like 1/4? I'm thining this:
- cure moderate wounds: 2d8+10 OR +1/4 HP
- cure critical wounds: 4d8 +20 OR +1/2 HP
- heal: 150 OR +3/4 HP
I guess if we say that cure mod heals +1/4 HP, then we can say cure serious can heal 1/4 too. This would also affect Mass Cure Moderate Wounds (+1/4), Mass Cure Critical Wounds (+1/2), and Mass Heal (+3/4). And Mass Cure Serious Wounds (+1/4).
I know this is all separate from potions and healing surges, but I thought I would include it.
Does anyone else think the caster level bonus to healing spells are weird, especially the Mass versions which range from +25 to +40 caster level... then followed by the 9th level spell Mass Heal which goes to capping at 25 caster level. Just plain weird and inconsistent. What about something like this to revamp things:
SPELL LEVEL_____CASTER LEVEL CAP
1 Cure Light....................+5
2 Cure Mod.....................+10
3 Mass Cure Mod.............+10
3 Cure Serious................+15
4 Cure Critical.................+20
5 Mass Cure Mod.............+20
6 Heal...........................+20
7 Mass Cure Serious........+25
8 Mass Cure Critical.........+25
9 Mass Heal...................+30
Sadrik
First Post
First off, for my house rules, healing is very close to the RAW. My house rules are just that a mod on top of 3.5. So I like a very basic change like the one I did to the heal skill long term care. I don't want to change the feel of 3.5.
When reinventing the 3e system though, before you deal with all the aspects of HP and healing. You should first determine what you want HP to represent and then go from there.
It also looks like you want to make the 1/4 HP heal thing carry over to the cure spells and potions. I think that is a pretty dramatic change from 3e. You could force that to work but again it would be a departure. If you do the biggest question is how do you accommodate them into a system that fundamentally feels like 3e. Try starting out with 1/5 for CLW, 2/5 for CMW, 3/5 for cure serious, 4/5 for cure critical and 5/5 for heal spell. The mass versions just do it on a bigger scale. Note that Wands of CLW, a staple in any 3e game will be a five charge heal spell regardless the level - not sure that is right...
I have seen house rules in 3e games in the past where they said - all healing is average (no rolling needed). I guess the idea is similar to no rolling for HP as you level up. so 1d8 is 4.5 which often gets rounded to 5. So you could simply do packets of 5 healing based on the caster level with a max.
Another idea, the various cure spells do healing like attack spells:
CLW 1d6/level 5d6 max
CMW 1d6/level 10d6 max
CSW 1d6/level 15d6 max
CCW 1d6/level 20d6 max
When reinventing the 3e system though, before you deal with all the aspects of HP and healing. You should first determine what you want HP to represent and then go from there.
It also looks like you want to make the 1/4 HP heal thing carry over to the cure spells and potions. I think that is a pretty dramatic change from 3e. You could force that to work but again it would be a departure. If you do the biggest question is how do you accommodate them into a system that fundamentally feels like 3e. Try starting out with 1/5 for CLW, 2/5 for CMW, 3/5 for cure serious, 4/5 for cure critical and 5/5 for heal spell. The mass versions just do it on a bigger scale. Note that Wands of CLW, a staple in any 3e game will be a five charge heal spell regardless the level - not sure that is right...
I have seen house rules in 3e games in the past where they said - all healing is average (no rolling needed). I guess the idea is similar to no rolling for HP as you level up. so 1d8 is 4.5 which often gets rounded to 5. So you could simply do packets of 5 healing based on the caster level with a max.
Another idea, the various cure spells do healing like attack spells:
CLW 1d6/level 5d6 max
CMW 1d6/level 10d6 max
CSW 1d6/level 15d6 max
CCW 1d6/level 20d6 max
Kerrick
First Post
You might be on to something there, Sadrik. Let's stick with 1d8, since that's what divine spells use, but use the base amount + 1d8/2 levels, +1/caster level, with the standard cap (CLW at L5, CMW at L10, CSW at L15, and CCW at L20. So, with CLW, we get...
L1: 1d8+1 (same as now)
L3: 2d8+3 (vs. 1d8+3)
L5: 2d8+5 (vs. 1d8+5)
CMW becomes:
L3: 1d8+1d8+3 (same as now)
L6: 1d8+3d8+6
L8: 1d8+4d8+8
L10: 1d8+5d8+10 (37; not very much at L10, but still useful)
CSW:
L5: 3d8+2d8+5
L8: 3d8+4d8+8
L10: 3d8+5d8+10 (46; better than CMW, but not overwhelmingly so)
L15: 3d8+7d8+15 (60)
CCW:
L7: 3d8 + 3d8 + 7 (better than 4d8+7, but less than CSW at L8 and more than CLW at L8, which is good).
L10: 3d8 + 5d8 + 10
L15: 4d8+7d8+15 (4.5 better than CSW at the same level, which is comparable to the existing spells).
L20: 3d8 + 10d8 + 20 (78. A respectable number).
Compare to heal: 10 points/level, max of 150 at L15.
The mass spells (vanilla) work this way: Extra healing power is capped at 5 x CL. Why they did that is beyond me, but whatever. Since mass spells always have a lower number of dice, I would probably (off the top of my head) go with base amount + 1d8/3 levels + 1/level, with the cap at 3 x CL. So...
Mass CLW (caps at L15)
L9: 1d8 + 3d8 + 9
L12: 1d8 + 4d8 + 12 (34)
L15: 1d8 + 5d8 + 15 (42)
Mass CMW (cap at L20)
L11: 2d8 + 3d8 + 11
L14: 2d8 + 4d8 + 14
L20: 2d8 + 6d8 + 20 (56)
Mass CSW (caps at L25)
L13: 3d8 + 4d8 + 13
L20: 3d8 + 6d8 + 20 (60)
L25: 3d8 + 8d8 + 25 (74)
Mass CCW (caps at L30)
L15: 4d8 + 5d8 + 15
L20: 4d8 + 6d8 + 20 (65)
L25: 4d8 + 8d8 + 25 (79)
L30: 4d8 + 10d8 + 30 (93)
My conclusion: These are very workable numbers. They're hardly game-breaking; at L20, your average mage will have (2.5 x 20) + 20 = 65 hp, assuming a +1 Con bonus. The average rogue/monk would have around (3.5 x 20) + 40 = 110 hp; a cleric/druid would have around (4.5 x 20) + 60 = 140, and a fighter-type would likely have around (5.5 x 20) + 100 = 210.
These are probably lowball figures; I had a rogue multiclass with 440 hit points at L30, and the barbarian/Legendary Dreadnaught had twice that, but the point is that these changes make healing much more useful without going as far as 4E's "heal completely between battles" thing. Clerics can carry around fewer healing spells (or sac fewer spells for healing), while druids and bards become more efficient healers, and potions/wands are more effective. Basically, it's a win-win situation all around.
And on the other side of the coin, using cure/inflict spells against enemies becomes a lot more viable as well. Hit a vampire with an empowered CMW (or god forbid, a maximized one), and he won't shrug it off like he does now.
L1: 1d8+1 (same as now)
L3: 2d8+3 (vs. 1d8+3)
L5: 2d8+5 (vs. 1d8+5)
CMW becomes:
L3: 1d8+1d8+3 (same as now)
L6: 1d8+3d8+6
L8: 1d8+4d8+8
L10: 1d8+5d8+10 (37; not very much at L10, but still useful)
CSW:
L5: 3d8+2d8+5
L8: 3d8+4d8+8
L10: 3d8+5d8+10 (46; better than CMW, but not overwhelmingly so)
L15: 3d8+7d8+15 (60)
CCW:
L7: 3d8 + 3d8 + 7 (better than 4d8+7, but less than CSW at L8 and more than CLW at L8, which is good).
L10: 3d8 + 5d8 + 10
L15: 4d8+7d8+15 (4.5 better than CSW at the same level, which is comparable to the existing spells).
L20: 3d8 + 10d8 + 20 (78. A respectable number).
Compare to heal: 10 points/level, max of 150 at L15.
The mass spells (vanilla) work this way: Extra healing power is capped at 5 x CL. Why they did that is beyond me, but whatever. Since mass spells always have a lower number of dice, I would probably (off the top of my head) go with base amount + 1d8/3 levels + 1/level, with the cap at 3 x CL. So...
Mass CLW (caps at L15)
L9: 1d8 + 3d8 + 9
L12: 1d8 + 4d8 + 12 (34)
L15: 1d8 + 5d8 + 15 (42)
Mass CMW (cap at L20)
L11: 2d8 + 3d8 + 11
L14: 2d8 + 4d8 + 14
L20: 2d8 + 6d8 + 20 (56)
Mass CSW (caps at L25)
L13: 3d8 + 4d8 + 13
L20: 3d8 + 6d8 + 20 (60)
L25: 3d8 + 8d8 + 25 (74)
Mass CCW (caps at L30)
L15: 4d8 + 5d8 + 15
L20: 4d8 + 6d8 + 20 (65)
L25: 4d8 + 8d8 + 25 (79)
L30: 4d8 + 10d8 + 30 (93)
My conclusion: These are very workable numbers. They're hardly game-breaking; at L20, your average mage will have (2.5 x 20) + 20 = 65 hp, assuming a +1 Con bonus. The average rogue/monk would have around (3.5 x 20) + 40 = 110 hp; a cleric/druid would have around (4.5 x 20) + 60 = 140, and a fighter-type would likely have around (5.5 x 20) + 100 = 210.
These are probably lowball figures; I had a rogue multiclass with 440 hit points at L30, and the barbarian/Legendary Dreadnaught had twice that, but the point is that these changes make healing much more useful without going as far as 4E's "heal completely between battles" thing. Clerics can carry around fewer healing spells (or sac fewer spells for healing), while druids and bards become more efficient healers, and potions/wands are more effective. Basically, it's a win-win situation all around.
And on the other side of the coin, using cure/inflict spells against enemies becomes a lot more viable as well. Hit a vampire with an empowered CMW (or god forbid, a maximized one), and he won't shrug it off like he does now.
Sadrik
First Post
What about this?
1st CLW: 10 (averages 5.5-9.5 by RAW)
2nd CMW: 20 (averages 12-19 by RAW)
3rd CSW: 30 (averages 18.5-28.5 by RAW)
4th CCW: 40 (averages 25-38 by RAW)
5th Lesser Heal 5/level (45-100 --> made up spell)
6th Heal: 10/level (110-200 by RAW)
This gives a pretty hefty edge to healing, but I think that is ok.
1st CLW: 10 (averages 5.5-9.5 by RAW)
2nd CMW: 20 (averages 12-19 by RAW)
3rd CSW: 30 (averages 18.5-28.5 by RAW)
4th CCW: 40 (averages 25-38 by RAW)
5th Lesser Heal 5/level (45-100 --> made up spell)
6th Heal: 10/level (110-200 by RAW)
This gives a pretty hefty edge to healing, but I think that is ok.
Kerrick
First Post
Yeah, but then you can't empower or maximize them. Plus, they're still "throwaway spells" - good for 1-2 levels above where they appear, and that's it. With a scaling bonus, they remain viable for a longer period of time. Course, a flat bonus is a lot easier to handle - no dice rolling and all that - so it's kind of a toss-up: convenience and simplicity vs. more healing power and the ability to apply metamagic.
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