Healing as an Afterthought

[Gryph]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I particularly appreciate the posts from those of you who play leader's regularly.

@Tony_Vargas re. dailies and resting. You are absolutely right about that. I'm hoping that the medium rest concept will give players a couple of meaningful decision points when they are deciding to go on with a couple of different options. I tend to use my enounter budget on a high number of L-1 to L-3 NPCs supporting an L or L+1 encounter leader. This pattern leads to a lot of surge loss for the party without over pushing the threat of death. With the party frequently facing twice their number in non-minions the defender can't lock them all down.

The party will often have a good number of dailies left between them when they start feeling the pinch on surges.

@Hussar the only concern I have with increasing the effectiveness of surges used during short rests is having tow different resolution mechanics during play. We do add and lose players occasionally and a rule for surge recover that is complete in itself seems like a smaller and easier to convey rule change.

I think I will add the medium rest rule with the number of surges recovered being scaled to a characters base number of surges (1/3 of value seems good) and only usable twice a day. I wouldn't expect this rule to be used every session.

For now, I'm going to leave the in combat healing mechanics alone and give them some more thought. I may be trying to piecemeal the pacing issue and I'm not sure the pacing of 4e combats can be addressed in small steps. The system is too tightly interconnected.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I don't think that it is bad that a cleric or other leader with healing abilities does his or her own action first before asking if anyone needs healing. It would really stink if he or she didn't ask at all.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Making a healing a standard action basically means that whoever is playing a Leader now has to let the party dictate his main action in the round. If someone is down, he needs to blow his turn (as the OP mentioned, some healers don't do a lot besides heal with their minor, so making that minor a standard won't change that, meaning that the healer is now sacrificing his ability to do anything worthwhile) in order to get them back up, otherwise there will be a lot of glares at the table.

Perhaps it's not that healing is an "afterthought" in the case of the OP's players, but simply that his Leader is enjoying taking his turn and making his own choices about what his character will do?

On a side note, the most fun I ever had playing a Leader was with an Ardent in Dark Sun. They have awesome, interesting powers, and the Impetuous build was fun as hell ("No really, just move away and provoke. You'll get a big damage boost and then you can take down that artillery that's bogging us down, instead of slugging it out with the Brute."). If I had been relegated to healbot though, I never would have played it because I never would've gotten to do all of the fun amazing things I did, because I would've been constantly blowing my turns healing allies.

I'm interested in this. If you drop an important heal on an ally, saving him from unconsciousness or even reviving him to get back in the fight... is it your experience that the player/PC doesn't thank you for it?

I don't think it's that other players don't thank you for saving their bacon occassionally, it's just that they don't notice all the other things you're doing.

For example, in my first 4E campaign I played a Fighter and was the sole Defender in the party. The rest of the party wasn't especially good at tactics, which meant that it fell to me to handle that. They also didn't like it when I said "Hey, we should really do this" in an attempt to create some cohesive strategies, so they just sort of did their own thing.

To compensate for this I really had to pay attention, even when it wasn't my turn. I had to learn all of the monster roles and what they could, as well as the roles and abilities of my fellow players. That way, I could assess a situation and tell who would get into trouble, and which enemies were the biggest threats to the party.

Point is, every single turn I was watching what was going and try to stay aware of the situation at the table while others knitted, played Pokemon or played with the Ferrets. Many times I didn't save the party in some spectacular fashion like a crit on the BBEG, but in simply marking or not marking opponents at the most opportune times. These sorts of behind the scenes tactics are not noticed by many players, and thus you are never thanked for them. Yeah, I got thanked for tanking a Purple Dragon (150+HP in damage taken in that single encounter, probably another 100+ dished out, ended with 1HP and 1 surge...out of 12 that I started the day with. And that was at level 5, when I only had about 55 or 60HP.), but never for the dozens of times when I was surrounded by 3 or more enemies for multiple rounds taking every single attack they dished out.

Often times, healers get the same short shrift. They dutifully buff, dish out bumps to saving throws, heal, grants temps, and generally just do a good job of keeping the party alive and able to contribute. Yet, most people don't seem to really thank them for all the little things they do, just the big ones when they drop a Beacon at just the right moment.

 

[Spatula]

I'd like to partially respond to the majority opinion on healing action economy.

One of the playstyle considerations I'm struggling with is a perceived lack of interesting tactical impact on the decision to use a healing power. The leader classes as a whole have very few uses for their minors outside healing so there is typically no opportunity cost to be weighed in deciding whether or not to use the heal power.

If I don't want to or can't move this round, I don't have much use for my move action. Would increasing the cost of movement to a standard action give me more interesting tactical options, then?

The choice to use healing word or not depends on resource management, not action management. There's also the positioning factor.

I will also attest to shaman having a lack of minor actions.

 

[buddhafrog]

In general I like the concept of the medium rest. It makes sense and puts some normal life ideas into the game (eatting). However, I don't like taking away Healing Word from a minor. In many ways it is the key aspect of the character.

I do a few things regarding healing that I have come to love in my game:

• no more than 5 healing surges per night's rest. I don't usually have more than a few encounters per day. I like a "grittier" game with more risk. If PC's sleep in a safe/peaceful environment, they get 5 surges. The more stressful and uncomfortable, the fewer surges. If they are sleeping in a damp corner of a dungeon after almost being killed the night before and know that they are still the prey, they might only get 1d4-2 surges (min 1). I don't pull this extreme too often, but damn, it does add to the players' anxiety when I do. (As DM, I am aware of their health and might slightly tweak encounters to not take too much advantage of a too weakened party.) This does a few things: it gives the players a greater feeling of different environments, of growing danger that I feel would be present in a dangerous environments, and at times forces the players to vary their tactics which I thing challenges them and offers different characters different moments to shine.
• My players usually never have the 15 minute adventuring day, but if they do in a dangerous environment and haven't camped extremely safely, they know that there is a much greater chance of dangerous random encounters coming their way. Almost guaranteed.
• I let Paladins and Clerics use skill heal checks as a Standard action, and if they succeed, they can use one of their healing surges on their patient. I feel this gives more healing options and helps cover weakend party members but still makes it more of a sacrifice - and not guaranteed. I also nerf the "combat medic" feat a little to encourage taking it - but still transferring a healing surge to another takes a full standard action (not minor as stated in Combat Medic). *** I've found the PC's using this for NPC's often and it has really helped some of my players to connect to the NPC's around them which has been fantastic. He sees himself as a holy doctor.
• I limit the max number of healing surges - usually by three - except for Paladins and Clerics.
• I've played with not letting people ask "Who needs healing" mid-encounter. Players can call out for help of course. It hasn't worked well with some groups, but has worked great with others b/c enjoy more simulation and excel at role-play. It forces the healers to have the mind of a healer, not just the skill. They are aware. If they wouldn't know someone is hurt for some reason, I won't let them heal that PC.

 

[Stalker0]

The only issues I've ever had with healing in 4e, is I personally think healing is too powerful. Even paragon healing can take a PC at near death and bring them back to full. Also, I rarely have had to worry about players running out of surges, they are usually out of dailies and other things by then.

That said, I haven't played as much under the new math so as I am now playing in a new 4e game I will watch to see if my opinion changes.


Here is one idea you could try as a compromise between the minor action and the standard action.

Healing Word (Minor) Target can spend a healing surge.

Special: If you instead use a standard action, the target gains an additional +1d6 healing (2d6 at 6th, etc etc).

So you keep the minor healing, but you allow the standard healing if a player wants to push that in combat (and it keeps after combat healing as normal).

 

[Gryph]

The only issues I've ever had with healing in 4e, is I personally think healing is too powerful. Even paragon healing can take a PC at near death and bring them back to full. Also, I rarely have had to worry about players running out of surges, they are usually out of dailies and other things by then.

That said, I haven't played as much under the new math so as I am now playing in a new 4e game I will watch to see if my opinion changes.


Here is one idea you could try as a compromise between the minor action and the standard action.

Healing Word (Minor) Target can spend a healing surge.

Special: If you instead use a standard action, the target gains an additional +1d6 healing (2d6 at 6th, etc etc).

So you keep the minor healing, but you allow the standard healing if a player wants to push that in combat (and it keeps after combat healing as normal).

I like this. Possibly even give a a little more than the written bonus to healing, like +2d6 instead of +1d6 for a level 1 cleric.

Gives an interesting, situational decision for the leader. A quick heal and still attack or a big heal.

Thanks for the idea!

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I like this. Possibly even give a a little more than the written bonus to healing, like +2d6 instead of +1d6 for a level 1 cleric.

Gives an interesting, situational decision for the leader. A quick heal and still attack or a big heal.

Thanks for the idea!

Not really. I'd just use my Standard to Healing Strike instead. Or you end up with the other problem that the player will always seek to maximize healing (kinda like how Rogues always go for CA, even to the point where one I played with wouldn't attack without CA because "It's not worth it"), which means you've effectively made heals a Standard action.

There's already plenty of tactical considerations with healing. For example, on my Ardent I have Energizing Strike. I can use it as an At-Will unaugmented to grant a few temps. Augment 1, and it will grant actual HP to an unconscious ally. Augment 2, and it grants a full surge. So if I want to do a "big heal" on someone, there's already mechanics for that which don't require me sacrificing my whole turn. I can attack an enemy, grant a surge with an Augment 2 use of Energizing Strike, and then spend my minor to grant another surge with Ardent Surge. Most leaders have a similar capability depending on power selection.