Healing Outside of Combat

[Bolongo]

Otherwise you simply end a fight, the wounded ask the cleric for healing (as has been the time honoured tradition these past decades), he rolls, and keeps on going until people feel they are sufficiently healed. Then you work out how many short rests have gone by (if relevant, which is almost never), by the simple function of dividing the number of healing words used by 2.

This.

Exactly what I do. And so far, in 12 levels of play, the passage of "actual time" has never been relevant.

 

[Starfox]

In other words, I want rules that make short and simple as good as "complicated". I want rules that don't penalize short and simple with having to use up more healing surges, which turn "short and simple" into "getting closer to the end of the adventuring day".

This pretty much sums up my feeling too. I'm very much for the OPs solution. The only problem I can see with it is that it makes the Bard's rest-heal power obsolete, and in this case they can be allowed to stack.

But I don't think I'll actually make any changes. My group is what I'd call purist - it doesn't like house rules and would never take multiple short rests, so it's not a problem. To top it off, we do have a bard who can use the rest-enhancing power, so the only difference is 1d6 or healing.

 

[Sunglare]

This pretty much sums up my feeling too. I'm very much for the OPs solution. The only problem I can see with it is that it makes the Bard's rest-heal power obsolete, and in this case they can be allowed to stack.

But I don't think I'll actually make any changes. My group is what I'd call purist - it doesn't like house rules and would never take multiple short rests, so it's not a problem. To top it off, we do have a bard who can use the rest-enhancing power, so the only difference is 1d6 or healing.

Why wouldn't your party take multiple short rest? It is allowed by RAW and even encouraged.
I really don't see what the big deal is. It's all about the presentation.

DM: Okay guys that was a really tough fight and your pretty banged up. i know your pretty good at bandaging your own wounds but you might want to rest a little extra longer and have the cleric help you out.
Cleric: Okay I'll pray to Avandar to help us in this situation.
(cleric uses 6 healing words to get everybody full)
DM: Okay after 20 minutes you guys are nice and rested and may proceed on.


Healing surges are a persons over all health. With the help of a Leader they can help push that person to proceed further through the day and there really is no excuse to not use it outside of combat if you can.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem is when you want things short and simple, but you can clearly see the game rewarding "complicated" with a better outcome.

In other words, I want rules that make short and simple as good as "complicated". I want rules that don't penalize short and simple with having to use up more healing surges, which turn "short and simple" into "getting closer to the end of the adventuring day".

Of course, that means "complicated" needs to become irrelevant and obsolete. So you can't really please both groups at the same time.

And that is the problem.

(I agree nothing changes by PHB2. This problem existed before that book. Only the feat in PHB2 convinces me the designers aren't going to keep short rests short and simple and thus I need to fix that myself)

But really, I must confess I would be much more interested to hear your crunch analysis of my house rule (see link above) than to continue this "is it a problem or not" discussion...

Here's the problem. You want your cake -and- eat it too. There is a time cost to taking more time to heal with less surges. It is -not- automaticly better. As a DM, you can have certain adventures where taking more time leads to a worse outcome for the players. In cases where it doesn't matter, you can reward the players by requiring less surges.

In -both- cases, the decision is up to you, and the group. Now both are simple by any -real- standard in comparison to other systems used in the past.

The thing is, you -can- please both camps, and the way to do so is by creating decision points that enable either camp to go the direction they like. If you want 'short and simple' then reward taking less time. If you want to reward players for taking their time, then you do so.

In either case, you, as the DM, have the power to influence and affect the game you want through the application of rewarding the behavior that best suits your game.

Handing groups the power within the rules to do this is -good- design, not bad design. Just because -you- want your group to follow one decision point doesn't mean that it is appropriate for -all groups- or even the same group in different circumstances.

This is one of those things that rewards groups for going with the way -they- want, and that is not a bad thing. Games should reward players for having fun, not punish them for not following what a subset of the player group deems is acceptable for their group.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

Why not just assume that an encounter power, done outside of the confusion and stress of combat, has maximum effect. Instead of faffing around with averages just put on max.

If it isn't during combat what does it matter?

 

[MarkB]

This pretty much sums up my feeling too. I'm very much for the OPs solution. The only problem I can see with it is that it makes the Bard's rest-heal power obsolete, and in this case they can be allowed to stack.

But I don't think I'll actually make any changes. My group is what I'd call purist - it doesn't like house rules and would never take multiple short rests, so it's not a problem. To top it off, we do have a bard who can use the rest-enhancing power, so the only difference is 1d6 or healing.

Why wouldn't your party take multiple short rest? It is allowed by RAW and even encouraged.
I really don't see what the big deal is. It's all about the presentation.

I'm starting to get the feeling that this division in attitudes to short rests has a lot to do with the habits people have built up over the time they've been playing 4th Ed.

If your group have always assumed that players only use their native surge values outside combat, and that the only use of a short rest is to recover powers after a combat, then being introduced to rules that encourage multiple short rests will be jarring.

If, on the other hand, your group has always utilised healing powers between combats, and taken additional short rests whenever they need to recover expended encounter powers, regardless of whether or not combat or exertion was involved in their expenditure, then it will be jarring to hear that, to others, this play style feels strange and breaks immersion.

 

[Nytmare]

Did I miss a bit of errata or something at some point?

Short rests are abstractions that, if you need to get down to the nitty gritty take about five minutes. They aren't concrete units of measurement until you're in an situation that specifically states "you have X roughly-5-minute units before the princess gets eaten by monsters. Every encounter you get into and every time you take a short rest removes one of these roughly-5-minute units."

There is nothing narra, gami, or simulationist about it to break immersion. There isn't an adventure foreman standing around with a stop watch, blowing a whistle when everybody is supposed to be back from their 5 minute coffee break.