Healing Surge limitation

[Lakoda]

Forked from: Power Points for powers - solves a lot of issues

As I see it, 4E avoided magic points because that would lead to spell-casters drying up and becoming worthless (just like spell slots per level).

So they created this whole at-will/encounter/daily framework instead.

But then they went ahead and added healing surges, making characters dry up and have to rest anyway!?!

As I was reading through this PP thread CapnZapp's comment got me thinking about how HS are limited. Should they be? Why are they? Are there limitation a cause for the 5-minute adventure day?

I think sthey should be limited, but not in a daily way. Too often the Defenders find themselves with 0 HS and the rest of use have used 2 maybe 1. Combat is already pretty long, so removing the limit would not be good from that perspective. On that same note, do we really want to have a super long drawn out encounter end (by TPK) because of the lack of healing surges? That's an easy no. Yes we seem to want later encounters to be more difficult, have a higher chance of dying.

I offer up this HR for concideration.

The number of Healing Surges a character has is reduced by 5. So a Paladin now has 5 + Con mod Healing Surges (previously 10 + mod) and a Wizard would have 1 + Con mod (previously 6 + Con mod). The Durable feat will still function as normal, increasing the number of Healing Surges by 2.

After an Extended Rest a character will have their (new) full number of available Healing Surges for use. After a Short Rest a character will regain a number of Healing Surges equal to their (new) full number minus the number of Short Rests taken since their last Extended Rest (minimum 1).

When an item/feat/feature is based on the number of healing surges you've spent since your last Extended Rest (like some Tattoos; Ironheart Tattoo for example) use the number of Healing Surges you've spent since your last Short Rest plus the number of Short Rests you've taken since your last Extended Rest. This should work out to be the similar.

Yes, this requires some extra work on the player's and DM's part but it should be relatively small as they should be tracking the number of encounters anyways (for Milestones/AP purposes). Granted that is not the same as a Short Rest, but should be close enough.

In my eyes, this addresses the Defenders wanting to rest before the rest of the party and provides a mechanism of increased risk after every encounter without completely drying them up.

Thought, comment, flame?!?! If this goes over well here, I'll give it a try at my table..

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for forking this! Here's my reply moved out of that other thread:

Note that these are power points not magic points. I submit not drying up is not very interesting. The idea with this HR is to make it so that characters can dry up and can more freely use their powers (regardless of class).

Power points schmower points - I meant whatever points, not specific points only for spells.

My point was that first 4E solves the twin problems of novaing and drying up by giving you limited encounter and daily powers but also npn-suck at-wills. This makes novaing difficult, and drying up non-catastrophic. The rest of the day you can still manage without the best powers.

But then they somehow thought you still need to be forced into resting?!

I thought this was the problem, not the solution?

And I fail to see the conceptual difference between a character saying "that's it for today, i'm all outta level nines" and "that's it for today, i'm all outta surges".

I thought they went through all these hoops with powers to enable adventurers to move on for longer, and abolish the short adventure day.

In other words, instead of the rules telling the players when it's time for bed, allow the players to make those decisions.

"Do we trudge on even though we're out of dailies, or do we rest. Either way, it's up to us - it's a real decision and not something forced down our throats."

 

[StAlda]

What I like about this and CapnZapp's power points is that it makes dailies less daily. There are how many threads on here about speeding up combat or lowering monster hit points or un-nerfing magic items. It is obvious that the pc's have been nerfed too much. With approaches like these we can give the PC's back a little more punch. I'm not completely sold on the mechanics of these systems, but I can see they are heading in the right direction.

 

[77IM]

The entire point of limiting healing surges is to limit healing somehow. Hypothetically, if everyone had infinite healing surges, then you could heal back up to full HP with a short rest -- HP would become an "encounter" resource rather than a "daily" resource.

I'm not really sure what to do with this insight. D&D is largely a game of resource management. Action points and attack powers together form a sort of "kill people dead" resource, and healing surges and utility powers together form a sort of "don't get dead" resource. You can get back some of your resource after an encounter, but not all of it.

If every resource were an encounter resource, then encounters stand alone: "We had a tough fight this morning" has no impact on how we are doing this afternoon. But if all resources are daily resources, you wind up conserving during some encounters and once you "dry up" are forced to rest. By making some powers encounter and others daily, this is circumvented for powers. But once you are out of surges and low on HP, that's it, you're out, and once again are forced to rest. Again, I am just thinking out loud here...

-- 77IM

 

[Dire Human]

I think it's more of a conceptual difference than a gameplay one.

The fact that the gameplay treats Inspiring Word and Healing Word the same means something's going on. Healing Surges represent more than just health; they're morale and exhaustion, too. I don't think of Healing Surges as limiting healing; I think of them as limiting hit points.

When characters are out of Daily powers in 4th Edition, they're out of skills. That's what makes it equivalent to being out of spells in 3.5. But when characters are out of Healing surges in 4th Edition, it's equivalent to them being out of hit points in 3.5. No group would complain if a low-HP character asked to rest; why is there complaint when a character out of Healing Surges does the same?

 

[CapnZapp]

To clarify: my problem is this:

In 3E, running out of daily resources (i.e. spells) all-but required you to rest.
In 4E, running out of daily resources (i.e. powers) present you with a choice: do you play it safe and rest, or do you move on (and perhaps benefit from the saved time)?

So far, so good. But then healing surges come along:

In 4E, running out of daily resources (i.e. surges) all-but required you to rest. (If you can't accept healing, you die).

WTF? That brings us back to square one! Only "improvement" I can see is that it's not the same character (the Wiz/Sor) that necessarily brings the party's adventuring day to a halt all the time, now it can vary from day to day.

But the party's adventuring day is still brought to an abrupt stop all the same. Even more abrupt in 3E, in fact.

Where's the progress in this? Why solve the real problem (the 5 minute adventuring day) only to reintroduce it in another form?

 

[CapnZapp]

As far as I can see, the specific issue causing the problem is that the penalty for running out of your daily resources is applied to the entire group, instead of being applied to the individual.

If you're the fighter in 3E, you must rest when the Sorcerer runs out of spells. Otherwise you risk a TPK because your offensive power and utility tricks are depleted.

If you're the fighter in 4E, you must rest when the Rogue/Warlord/Wizard/whatever runs out of surges. Otherwise you risk a TPK because losing him means losing one fifth of the group's power.

Let's take an example solution to allow me to demonstrate this more clearly:

Let's say a character were to become Exhausted when he ran out of healing surges. This would be a new condition which meant taking a -2 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and speed. It would apply until you regain at least one healing surge (normally by taking an extended rest).

Suddenly the onus of being out of daily resources has shifted onto the character that has dried out! Being Exhausted isn't something you want to be: essentially it makes you two levels lower when it comes to your offensive power (your defenses remain the same) and you lose a bit of mobility too.

But you're still alive and kicking. You still contribute. You're still there, in the fight.

This would mean that no longer is the dreaded comment "okay, so I'm all out of surges" an automatic sentence to go to bed. Like when you run out of dailies, you can still trudge on.

This turns the non-choice of resting into a real choice. Do we continue, even though Belzar is exhausted?

The answer might be "no, let's quit for the day". But it might also be yes - "let's continue, the princess might die if we're late".

---

Not saying this is the be-all and end-all solution to the problem. But at least it illustrates where, in my opinion, WotC stepped wrong.

The resource management game of 4E was supposed to be about choice. Why not then make it so for surges too...?

 

[Nytmare]

Where's the progress in this? Why solve the real problem (the 5 minute adventuring day) only to reintroduce it in another form?

The five minute adventuring day was a result of people (or rather the caster contingent of the adventuring party) blowing all their resources to conquer whatever was standing in front of them.

Healing surges shouldn't be causing this kind of problem because #1 there are choke points to stop people from blowing them all in one go, and #2 under normal circumstances, you shouldn't NEED to use all your surges in one encounter.

Forcing the party to rest because they've used all their resources isn't the problem, allowing them to burn through all their resources to murder a single encounter is the problem. I don't think we have that problem.

 

[CapnZapp]

I beg to differ.

Having finite resources is okay - that's the resource management game we talked about.

But having penalties for running out of those resources that all but force you to take a certain action (stop the adventuring, i.e. the fun, i.e. the point of playing the game in the first place)?

Nah.

The mechanisms to prevent people from going nova are nice too. But the aren't the problem.

The problem is that when you're out, You. Can. Not. Continue.

This they solved for powers (running out of dailies is not exactly good, but hardly crippling). The choice is up to you.

But for surges, there's no such choice. That's the problem.

 

[CapnZapp]

Perhaps I should add that I don't think you're wrong, Nytmare.

That 4E fixes the way 3E casters could go nova is of course very welcome.

But my point is that this isn't enough, in my view.