Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Majere]

I dont own the XPH, Ive never been a psion fan, but some comments having read the whole thread.

1) Your comparrisons are wrong.
You shouldnt compare a 1st level spell to a first level power.
You should compare a silent,still eschewed first level spell to a first level power. That is a 1st level psi power is equivalent to a 3rd level spell. 2nd level powers to a 4th level spell and so on.
If you want to compare ps/day to spells/day you should consider this explicitally.

Further a 1st level spell from a 5th level caster is not the same as a 1st level power from a 5th level caster which has been agumented.
You want to compare a 1st level silent,still,eschewed spell cast as a 5th level spell (That makes it a 7th level spell equivalent), with a 1st level power augmented to 5dice.

Now, just reading that tell me instinctively that psions are over powered.
I dont need to know the number crunching of the system to understand that.

Further to the point.
2) Wizzards rarely cast more than 2/3 of the spells per day.
Reason ? Often spells you pick are useless because you picked wrong. Unless you read the DM's notes you will never have a perfect spell list so this should be taken into account.
Spontaineous spell casting means you will always be able to use all your pps, you always have the perfect spell for the job, right there in your head.

3) Energy substitution is one of the most powerful gimiks out there.
Full stop
Period.

From the threads Ive read about psi, the whole XPH sounds badly thought out and no reall attempt at balance has been effected. Of course I cant be sure, but what I read worries me. And psions flailing hasnt convinced me at all that he is right.

Just my 2c

Majere

 

[Thanee]

I don't suspect that this will prove much, as you have already demonstrated a willingness to ingore or downplay advantages I have sited, I don't suspect you will factor them in in your number crunching, either.

(snip somewhat fair guestimates as to PP and spell slots)

Cute!

The problem here is that you assume that a low level power augmented to a higher level power is the equivalent of an unaugmented high level power of the same cost. It might match damage or DC (but oft times only one or the other), but often lacks other advantages that higher level powers have.

Ahem. Plenty powers are (globes of invulnerability aside, which really is an almost neglectible factor) upgradeable to the power of a higher level. Powers do not work like spells on that behalf, they actually become higher level versions of themselves effectively (except for the actual level, which stays the same, of course). Arcane Construct? Dominate? Suggestion? Dispel? Just to name some random examples.

Further, you are still not factoring in the fact that arcane casters are getting more bang for their buck out of their lower level power slots.

How does full augmentation not factor this in!?

I compared fully augmented powers with spells there. Only fully augmented powers!

Please tell me, how full augmentation does not factor in the scaling of arcane spells.

A 3rd level fireball from a sorcerer can do 10d6 points of damage, while a psion has to pay 10 power points (the equivalent of a 5th level spell) to do the same amount. You express things in terms of fully augmented powers and ignore the fact that those fully augmented powers may be no better than one of a sorcerer's lower level powers.

*blink*

Not better?

Well, taking the fireball example, if you consider a +2 DC, +10 damage, chooseable save type and energy type not better, than I cannot help you, I guess.

Consider each psion PP as a dice of damage and apply the standard damage caps from the DMG as a weight to each level (or the arcane caster's level, whichever is worse), and you have a more realistic picture of their comparative power in terms of raw damaging potential. (Again, like your examples, it does not paint a complete picture, but it does shine a light on an area you are neglecting). For reference, a 10th level sorcerer will have 275 dice of damage power, compared to the psion's 113 (assuming a 20 in prime stat).

What kind of completely useless comparison is this!? Who cares for these numbers, they have no bearing on actual game play. My numbers do, they show what the classes can actually do and are no hypothetical statistics with no meaning, multiplying some random numbers with other random numbers. Yes, I understand what you are getting at, but what does it show to add up those numbers, that sorcerers look better, if you add up the whole scaling they get and compare it to a psion removed of all advantages they have? Wow! Genius!

And you honestly tell me I would neglect something there? Doh!

Which neglects the advantages each have as well.

*scratches head* Now you lost me... or did I lose you above?

Since spell scribing costs increase linearly and wealth increases exponentially, that's a faulty assumption for any competantly played wizard.

And the next thing you say is, that the scribing cost is a neglectable cost factor, huh? Suuure! Maybe at epic levels... but my 12th level wizardess had to spend a considerable amount of gold on her spellbook alone, to get this broad selection wizards have.

Another estimate I do not agree with. Especially not "in most cases." While in some cases a wizard may want to pick up a few spells in a similar chain, in most cases, they skip around a little.

Yeah, of course wizards would not upgrade the spells they actually use (either directly to a higher level version of the same spell, or something fairly similar)... why should they!?

And neglects such factors as the wizard leaving open slots to access WAY more spells than the psion could ever hope to.

"Way more" is a huge overstatement, but more, of course, maybe 20% or so. However 15 minutes to instant is still quite some difference. Not everytime, but also leaving slots open means to have less spells available at the moment. Yes, this ability is good, I'm using it extensively when I play wizards, but it's not even in the same ball park as spontaneous casting.

Which is an argument made in the same breath as asserting that psions can outblast a sorcerer -- at the cost of squandering all of their PP for the day. Yes, flexibilty is an advantage. But as overhead is more for a psion, they pay for that advantage.

And way too little as shown above, since they can keep up with the sorcerer quite good, even if they pay full price for every power they manifest. If you go down to an augmentation level, which makes the effect of the power compareable to the spells of the sorcerer, which is not the maximum possible, mind you, the numbers look even worse, but I deliberately chose a point, which would be extremely slanted against the psion (full augmentation on all powers means the quickest way to blast through all those PP, so the cost you mention all the time is at its peak there), and even then, things do not look that bad, I'd say. If I look at all the stuff I've listed, which psions get over sorcerers, then I can with absolute confidence say, that this cost is not enough!

If you stack the deck and ignore advantages of arcane casters compared to psions, yeah.

Yep, sure. Stacking the deck, since I compare the psion to the best ability from each sorcerer (spells per day) and wizard (spells known) instead of the weakest... Stacking the deck against the arcanists maybe...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Interesting discussion, but it might be that you folks aren't looking at the whole picture. It has been suggested in my gaming group that while, yes, we agree that the XPH psion is a better nuker than the wizard or sorcerer, he is far weaker defensively that either class. I won't argue the point since I haven't read the psionic powers in detail, but isn't it true that the psion has far fewer defensive capabilites than a like-leveled arcanist? That's got to count for something when you're stacking the casters up against each other.

Hmmm, no I don't think they are lacking here. Most good defensive spells are available as powers. Surely not all defensive spells, but the best stuff for sure. Psions even get Mind Blank at what 6th power level?

Their main disadvantage here is, that they can only really protect themselves, not others.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Oh, please, Thanee. I am giving you the benefit of trusting that you actually believe the psion to be overpowered.

I do.

But this was about psion versus sorcerer. You will not find many people (not even Scion, tho he will probably say so, just to be on the opposition ), that agree, that the difference between sorcerer and psion is just slight. Be it the sorcerer being underpowered or the psion being overpowered is irrelevant, the difference between those two is what that was about. And the term "slight" certainly does not do it justice.

Oh, undoubtedly. I am not saying lower level spells are the same potency as higher level spells.

What I am saying is that those lower level spells are on par with lower level augmented powers that the psion will be paying the price of higher level powers for.

Sure. Everyone knows that.

I'm not sure how to reply to that considering I consider spell focus underpowered.

Well, if Spell Focus was +2, Psionic Endowment would have been +2, so that's really a non-issue for this comparison.

You do pay for it, though. Just as before. I think it could be significant to leverage some powers. Too useful? Hard to say. I'll leaning towards the side of "not" since animal affinity is a discipline power.

Not too useful, but you get something in return for this focus restriction, that's all I'm saying, so it's not just an added restriction, but an advantage and a disadvantage.

I just thought I added this, since your mentioning of the focus neglected this little fact.

But only with partial benefits of each. Some of the benefits that those feats give you -- mainly, lack of being noticed using a power/casting a spell -- are still a problem for psions.

Which they can prevent with a simple skill roll of a skill they will have maxed anyways, IIRC.

While that solves the full action annoyance, it still keeps you from using any other enhancements or feats that would require you to expend your focus.

Indeed, the focus limit is mainly, that you can only use one feat at a time. In turn those feats are better one by one.

Advantage and disadvantage.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tidus4444]

I think you all are forgetting one thing, and that's that the wizard/sorcerer can use metamagic feats to bypass the dice cap. Psions can't really.

Take it at 10th level. A Psion vs. a Wizard. A wizard can cast his empowered Fireball for what effectively amounts to 15d6 points of damage. Even if the psion applies empower spell to his energy cone (which expends psionic focus, BTW), we've got 12d6+8,or roughly 14d6 damage. They're about equal. Take it at level 15, same deal.

Now, at lower levels, a Psion will deal better damage than a wizard. The wizard has a lot more up his sleeve though. Perhaps it's simply my playing style, but I rely on buffing spells a lot. The Psion doesn't get enlarge person (that he can cast on other party members anyway, and who wants an enlarged caster?). No shield. No ani-buff spells. No Haste. No Heroism. No Stoneskin. No improved invis. No sleep. No rainbow pattern.

 

[Thanee]

Take it at 10th level. A Psion vs. a Wizard. A wizard can cast his empowered Fireball for what effectively amounts to 15d6 points of damage.

Yeah, and the psion's non-metapsionicked Energy Ball deals 10d6+10, which is about 13d6, has a +2 higher save DC and the option for another energy type and even another save type (against those pesky Evasionists). Furthermore it has no verbal, somatic or material components.

Where's the problem?

Energy Ball can keep up easily with fireball, even a metamagicked fireball.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

And of course psions cannot get beyond their dice caps... they do not have any!

Strange, looks to me like energy ball maxes out at 7d6 unless augmented. Whereas a fireball maxes out at 10d6 unless modified somehow.

So energy ball is one level higher, is on the kineticist list, and does less damage.

 

[Thanee]

No wonder that you cannot prove anything.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

1) Your comparrisons are wrong.
You shouldnt compare a 1st level spell to a first level power.
You should compare a silent,still eschewed first level spell to a first level power. That is a 1st level psi power is equivalent to a 3rd level spell. 2nd level powers to a 4th level spell and so on.

Do you seriously beleive this?

Try this thought experiment.

Tell your players you are introducing a new class. The stealth mage.

They have the sorcerer/wizard spell list, EXCEPT all of their spells are silenced and stilled, and the spells are two levels higher.

See how many players take it. See how it gets trounced in an environment designed for its level.

In short, those feats are not worth that much. Those feats are provided as options. They do not have the potency to replace a spell level.

Further, as I already pointed out earlier, psions do not receive the full benefits of those feats.

Further to the point.
2) Wizzards rarely cast more than 2/3 of the spells per day.

I'll state, IME, that is wrong. Last wizard I played cast out of his spells three consecutive times in a dungeon, forcing a party retreat each time.

Reason ? Often spells you pick are useless because you picked wrong. Unless you read the DM's notes you will never have a perfect spell list so this should be taken into account.

This ignores the open slot rule, as well as cheap scrolls as backups at low levels.

Spontaineous spell casting means you will always be able to use all your pps, you always have the perfect spell for the job, right there in your head.

It most certainly does not. The much more limited spell selection means that you often don't know the right spell or power at all. Saving the points and not solving the problem at all is not a boon.

3) Energy substitution is one of the most powerful gimiks out there.
Full stop
Period.

So, you implicitly and absolutely trust the R&D team's assessment on the value of still and silent spell feats, but not this one, eh?

 

[Scion]

No wonder that you cannot prove anything.

Apparently you are not playing d&d.

SRD:
Energy Ball
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Kineticist 4
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create an explosion of energy of the chosen type that deals 7d6 points of damage to every creature or object within the area. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
Cold: A ball of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold ball is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity: Manifesting a ball of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire: A ball of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic: A ball of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.


Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Material Component: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.


Energy ball is one level higher, is on the kineticist list (not general), and does less dice of damage than fireball (equal caster level of at least 8th).

In other words, you are apparently playing some game other than d&d. Please post things relevant to d&d instead of whichever other game you are refering to.