Helm of Opposite Alignment ... Think "A Clockwork Orange"

[Celebrim]

Perhaps Good churches would eschew this method on the grounds that because it is a compulsion, the subsequent atonement can never really hold onto the person's soul, and so by Helming a prisoner, you deny them the ability to ever choose Good and redemption on their own, thus damning their soul to wherever it was going before you Helmed them...

I mentioned this possibility earlier. Like I said, I'm not sure what I think. It would depend very much on the details of how the soul worked and how the helm worked, neither of which I have alot of information on.

That's why I've tried to restict myself to the possibilities.

 

[Old Drew Id]

One twist on the idea that the helm turns the one Good innocent guy Evil: imagine that the Helm has been in use for decades, and very successfully. Crime is down, the streets are safe, etc. But all along, the Helms were never really destroying all of that Evil, they were just storing it away somewhere. And that mounting Evil has been building up pressure like a reactor on overload. Then along comes the wrongly-accused Good guy who is given the Helm treatment. Instead of just becoming slightly Evil, he becomes super-duper-ginormous-Evil. Basically, he has all of the memories, all of the skills, all of the knowledge, all of the motivation, all of the talents, etc. of all of the evil criminals ever turned by the Helm network, plus an internal pipeline straight to the negative material plane.

 

[Felix]

It is however NOT couched in relativism.

My apologies if I misconstrued your example of the perception of flogging in modern America of having an effect upon the morality of such a punishment. Relativists often argue perception and environment when speaking about morality, after all.

To be honest, I think it would kill it. I think that a forced alignment shift would be the equivalent of smashing a glass vase, melting down the peices, and reshaping it with an unloving hand to something else. I think it would be the most brutal thing I can imagine short of actually destroying a soul, and while less violent would be more cruel. I think that at the moment it happens, former you ceases to exist permanently and that you can never go back.

Except:

Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated.​

While poetic, I don't think the Helm of Opposite Alignment does to a soul quite what you suggest. You can recover from the Helm both your alignment and your status as a alignment-dependent class; the text says it is a curse, and requires the use of Bestow Curse to create. Is not the obliteration of a soul somewhat strong for a 3rd (4th) level spell and a 4,000gp magic item, something not even Soul Bind can do?

 

[Thurbane]

It raises some very inmteresting issues of "magical rehabilitation":

1. Alignment is only one component of a beings behaviour. Some violent criminals might be neutral or good but suffer from mental illness. In a magcial world, they might have even comitted crimes under magical compulsion or possession. Along with the Helm of Opposite alignment, I would imagine you would need liberal use of Atonement and Heal spells, along with Detect Thoughts to check if the rehabilitation is successful. Throw in Mind Fog as well, to help Will saves fail.

2. Cost - does the government pass on the high cost of these magics to the opulation? The lower levels of society might rather take their chance with rabid murderers than have to pay a new "rehabilitation" tax.

3. Reversal - most of the rehabilitating spells can be undone, in one form or another.

4. Victims - the victims of violent crimes, and/or their families might not think that rehabilitation is enough: they might demand life incarceration, or execution.

5. Moral backlash - the flipside of point 4, some people might view using mind and ethos altering magics on people, even convicted criminals, to be morally reprehensible, especially Chaotic aligned types.

...all things considered, I think it might cause more problems than it solves, but it certainly makes some interesting food for thought.

 

[Umbran]

What do you think a forced alignment shift would do to a person's soul? How would you run it?

Well, I've run several campaigns with a variety of cosmologies - the spiritual effects of this procedure depend very much on the cosmology and metaphysics of the world in question. He political ramifications depend on what the people in the world believe the metaphysics are.

In the game I currently run, the people in the world have very little knowledge of the afterlife and souls - that information is censored by a guardian deity. Similarly, the other gods don't speak in direct and clear voices. The setup is such that atheism is actually plausible. So, the mortals would all be guessing, and reacting as best they can.

To be sure. And a great way to get PCs to fight and destabilize a Good government; after which the Evil government (former PCs' employers) rises and really shows them innovations in destroying free will. *twirls moustache* Ha ha.

I'd more say this would be a way to make the primary conflict between Law and Chaos, rather than Good and Evil.

 

[Particle_Man]

Might I refer you to a book by Eve Forward - Villains by Necessity? It is quite a fun read, about a world where Good wins, and what happens as a result...

Especially since it explicitly refers to forcible conversion of evil prisoners to the Good alignment.

Another good one is a dragon magazine article/story about the origin of the Dark Sun preservers, which started because one of the bad guys found a treasure horde and put on a helm of opposite alignment, and became a good guy...temporarily (but long enough to help found the preservers, who later had to kill him when he was "uncursed").

Now that I think about it, though, there are a *hell* of a lot of ways to change people's alignments that don't involve helms of opposite alignment. For instance have the person repeatedly bitten by a werebear (and cured) and *poof*, you have another werebear. And they are always lawful good. Mind you, it can be cured, alas.

Mind you, with the number of other lycanthropes and undead around, it is a *lot* easier to make someone evil. 20th level paladin bitten by uber-vampire becomes 10th ex-paladin/10th blackguard vampire, CE as you please.

There are some monsters that make you neutral, but green slimes are not dynamic PCs.

 

[FireLance]

I think it all boils down to what you believe to be the fundamental nature of Evil (or, in a game, the fundamental nature of Evil in the setting). If you believe that Evil is a valid natural state, and that sentient beings have the right to choose to be evil, then using a Helm of Opposite Alignment violates that right.

However, if you believe that Good (or at least Neutrality) is the natural state and that Evil is unnatural, then using a Helm of Opposite Alignment is no different from using dispel magic to remove a compulsion, or using greater restoration to cure insanity.

I think that standard D&D takes a dualistic approach that is more in line with the first view (Evil is natural and valid) than the second (Evil is unnatural and should be cured), given the usually equal but opposite forces of Good and Evil, and Law and Chaos, and given that a Helm of Opposite Alignment works to change Good to Evil as well, and not only to cleanse Evil and restore a person to Good.

Hence, in a standard D&D game, the right to choose one's alignment should be considered as fundamental a right as the right to life, or the right to liberty. Evil creatures may callously disregard them, but Good creatures would prefer not to deprive sentient creatures of them, and would only kill, imprison, or change a creature's alignment if it is necessary to prevent them from harming others.

Of course, it is possible to have a setting that takes the second view of Evil, but in such a setting, Helms of Opposite Alignment probably should not exist in their current form. Instead, there would be Cleansing Helms that worked to cleanse Evil from a creature's soul and return it to its natural state and cursed Taint Helms that would twist a creature's soul and make it Evil.

 

[KrazyHades]

it'd be cheaper to just turn 50 people into chickens.

I may just have to add that to my sig, der_kluge

 

[Celebrim]

I think it all boils down to what you believe to be the fundamental nature of Evil (or, in a game, the fundamental nature of Evil in the setting). If you believe that Evil is a valid natural state, and that sentient beings have the right to choose to be evil, then using a Helm of Opposite Alignment violates that right.

However, if you believe that Good (or at least Neutrality) is the natural state and that Evil is unnatural, then using a Helm of Opposite Alignment is no different from using dispel magic to remove a compulsion, or using greater restoration to cure insanity.

I don't buy that dichotomy. I think you can believe both that evil is an invalid choice and an unnatural state, and that sentient beings have a right to choose to be evil.

Hence, in a standard D&D game, the right to choose one's alignment should be considered as fundamental a right as...the right to liberty.

I think that the right to choose between good and evil is fundamentally the right to liberty. To be free means you also have the possibility of screwing things up, and if you choose it, that will be your choice. If you are free, you can use or misuse your liberty. If you aren't responcible for your own actions, then you aren't free. Conversely, I think that if you are responcible for your own actions, then you must be free.

In D&D terms, I don't think we are on rails. We can make the 'wrong choice' and derail the plot, we just have to live with the consequences.

Or to put it a different way, God plays dice with the universe.

 

[painandgreed]

Cool idea. Sounds like something my elves (who are ultra lawful) might do. Any one of their own, who unless fairly young and ineffectual, would be fairly high level that turned unseelie (chaotic) could be brought back into the fold. This would preserve the elven order, satisfy the elven honor, and probably repay for itself in fairly short order.

Some humans would probably adopt the custom but only for catured enemy leaders when it might benefit the capturer.