HELP! Avenger issue

[CovertOps]

I have an Avenger in my 6th level party (I am the DM). He has focused on having the highest AC possible by having 10 + 3 (Hide armor) + 2 (Enhancement) + 3 (Class feature) + 1 (Feat increasing class feature) + 5 (20 Int or Dex modifier) + 3 (Level) = 27 AC.

This is a problem when I run my game in that his AC is 2 points higher than either of the defenders and substantially higher than anyone else in the party. If I use monsters of level n (6) it's almost impossible for them to hit him (around 15-17 +), but if I use higher level monsters then I start to push the non-defenders (and other players that are not him at the table) into auto-hit territory (4+?)

ACs in the party last night were 27, 25 (defender), 25 (defender), 19-21 (all the rest).

I know I can meta-game this and throw more guys that hit non-AC defenses in their at will attacks but that seems kinda cheesy if I do it every fight where he'll start whining that I'm doing it on purpose (also there are not that many of those in heroic). I can use higher level mobs, but as I said above with a 6-8 point AC swing from him to the lowest AC in the party I can either hit him and auto-hit the low end or miss him and be about right for everyone else. Going forward I know he said he's getting one more feat that will bump his AC another point so then the relative difference will be 28 vs (19 or 20) or 8-9 points.

I'm looking for suggestions about how to address this and keep things interesting for the whole party. First: This Avenger class feature seems broken. At +4 AC on top of DEX/INT modifier and other feats you can take there will be a large disparity between his AC and other defenses all the time on top of the fact that he has managed to get a better AC than a defender. Is there something I'm missing? Perhaps his class feature is situational instead of static? Perhaps I just need to build encounters with a leader and soldiers and figure out how to get him on the boss all the time. Then I could use a n+(5-7) boss with n+(1-2) soldiers for the rest of the party and keep things closer. I hate to be stuck with encounter design limitations like that because things will get pretty old doing the same fight over and over even if it's with different monsters. Perhaps I need to make an NPC Avenger and throw it at him so the 2 of them can slog it out with the mondo AC and he can get a taste of his own medicine.

 

[Niflheim]

You could use minions to flank and then aid another to a larger monster. Thats +4 to hit, also since the minion doesn't attack it wont activate the avenger int bonus to damage.

 

[Ryujin]

Even with Oath of Emnity, he can't be a very effective Striker. Sure, he isn't going to get hit very often, but then again he isn't going to help the party much with his main attribute being a secondary/tertiary stat. And as you say, his NADs can't be all that great.

Did he take training with leather prior to taking hide proficiency, or did he jump straight to hide? That's a no-no.

Overall I could see him as being annoying, but not necessarily game killing. When the opposition finds that they can't hit him, they'll switch to squishier targets and ignore him. That means that those 19-21 AC characters are going to drop pretty fast.

Also when you have defenders with ACs that are that much higher than who they're defending, the enemy sees no benefit in attacking the defenders instead.

 

[chitzk0i]

I know I can meta-game this and throw more guys that hit non-AC defenses in their at will attacks but that seems kinda cheesy if I do it every fight where he'll start whining that I'm doing it on purpose (also there are not that many of those in heroic).

Yes, add some monsters that hit FRW. That doesn't mean that every monster in every encounter ought to hit fort, reflex, or will. Just mix it up. Most artillery monsters hit non-AC defenses with their AOE attacks. If you're already using those, have them notice their allies missing the avengers and target him.

There are other ways to get past high AC, too. Damage auras are auto-hit and could help him feel the pain. Ongoing damage can make a single hit count for more. The orc Eye of Gruumsh has a nasty vs. Will minor action ability for -4 AC (and an area attack, IIRC). One of the stock orc encounters has some real potential, I think. Eye of Gruumsh curses three party members for -4 AC, then the giant wolf riders rush in with combat advantage.

Plus, you could always take a little liberty with the monsters. Themed monsters can really tie together a group of encounters and one way to do that could be to add an ability to all the monsters. Maybe there are some hobgoblin cultists with bugbear allies and they all have an encounter power for some kind of psychic fear attack, or maybe fire breath with ongoing fire damage.

Basically, I'm saying that monster level is not the only tool you have to deal with this.

 

[Herschel]

I wouldn't worry too much about it, to be honest. His feats are tied up in defense (Improved Armor of Faith, Leather & Hide) vs. offensive cheese (Focus, Expertise, Melee Training, Fullblade/Executioner's Axe, Righteous Rage Channel Divinity?). He's built for durability, nothing wrong with that.

That said, attacking FORT isn't metagaming, it's a viable attack. It's most likely the Defenders' best non-AC defense so it's simply a choice on your part who to go after in certain encounters.

It sounds like good party composition building to me. They appear to be covering their weaknesses. If he goes off "alone" while the others make a tighter group, it makes sense to build as he has.

Also, tactics, tactics, tactics. Focus fire, charge in to a flank for a +3, etc. can do wonders. Don't be afraid to challenge them a bit either with higher level baddies. If the defenders are good at their jobs, they can keep the back line fairly clean.

 

[CovertOps]

Did he take training with leather prior to taking hide proficiency, or did he jump straight to hide? That's a no-no.

I don't have his character sheet, but he made it with character builder and I was able to duplicate it myself so I know it's legal. If he had to take Leather, Hide, and +1 AC Class feature feat he still has one feat left to do what he wants at 6th level (I think he's taking two-weapon fighting to get two weapon defense - the other +1 AC I referred to in my post). I think the least they could have done is make it like the monk class feature (i.e. it doesn't work if you're wearing any armor or a shield), but of course the monk is kinda weak sauce because of that.

Even with Oath of Emnity, he can't be a very effective Striker. Sure, he isn't going to get hit very often, but then again he isn't going to help the party much with his main attribute being a secondary/tertiary stat. And as you say, his NADs can't be all that great.

As for his stats he has a 18/14 IIRC both bumped by racials to 20/16 with the 20 being his secondary and 16 being his primary attack stat. As long as he can stay away from other mobs he can use his 2 attack rolls class feature to overcome the slightly lower attack bonus. I'll have to go home and make his character again and look at his other defenses so I know how to put the smack down on him every once in a while.

Overall I could see him as being annoying, but not necessarily game killing. When the opposition finds that they can't hit him, they'll switch to squishier targets and ignore him. That means that those 19-21 AC characters are going to drop pretty fast.

Also when you have defenders with ACs that are that much higher than who they're defending, the enemy sees no benefit in attacking the defenders instead.

Guess I'm going to have to be more brutal to them. If I have 3 archers I'll just have them all fire at the same target. If 2 miss then they move to the next target. This almost seems like evil DMing, but it may force the party to re-evaluate their group tactics. If both leaders and one of the other strikers drop to the ground and the other party members need to go bandage them before they die it will certainly make things more interesting.

 

[Nail]

I have an Avenger in my 6th level party (I am the DM). He has focused on having the highest AC possible by having 10 + 3 (Hide armor) + 2 (Enhancement) + 3 (Class feature) + 1 (Feat increasing class feature) + 5 (20 Int or Dex modifier) + 3 (Level) = 27 AC.

Cool! He's spent 3 feats to get there (Leather Prof, Hide Prof, Imp. Armor of Faith) of the 4 he gets for 6th level. That's not an insignificant sacrifice.

He also needed a Str 13 and Con 13 (for Hide Prof. feat), and since the class requires neither of those stats (Avenger needs Wisdom primary, then Dex or Int secondary), his PC spent some significant point-buy to get there. So his PC base stats (pre-race, 1st) were 17, 14, 13, 13, 11, 8? That's not a great distribution (and it means he put a 14 on his primary stat: Wisdom, which sucks) so he made sacrifices there too. What race is his PC?

I'm guessing he started this PC at 6th, and so didn't "feel the burn" of this build.

Bottom Line: this guy sacrificed his attack roll *and* three feats to get to this high AC. Is that *really* a problem?

 

[CovertOps]

I wouldn't worry too much about it, to be honest. His feats are tied up in defense (Improved Armor of Faith, Leather & Hide) vs. offensive cheese (Focus, Expertise, Melee Training, Fullblade/Executioner's Axe, Righteous Rage Channel Divinity?). He's built for durability, nothing wrong with that.

That said, attacking FORT isn't metagaming, it's a viable attack. It's most likely the Defenders' best non-AC defense so it's simply a choice on your part who to go after in certain encounters.

It sounds like good party composition building to me. They appear to be covering their weaknesses. If he goes off "alone" while the others make a tighter group, it makes sense to build as he has.

Also, tactics, tactics, tactics. Focus fire, charge in to a flank for a +3, etc. can do wonders. Don't be afraid to challenge them a bit either with higher level baddies. If the defenders are good at their jobs, they can keep the back line fairly clean.

I think he's using that double weapon Urgosh? +2 d12/d8. I don't care for Expertise and have house ruled them out replacing them with the bonus to all attacks at 5/15/25.

I only said it would be meta-gaming if I started throwing FRW attacks at the party EVERY encounter. I already have plans muwhahaha.

I don't give them that much credit that it's "good party composition" and "covering their weaknesses". This one particular player is a power gamer to the max and the rest of the party is just not as min/maxed as he is. This more than anything is what irks me about this the most. The "swing" between min/max and average players should not be this big. One set of choices should not be that much better than a different set of choices. I suppose my other option is to bring it up at the table with all the players present and see how everyone feels about it. If I do as Ryujin suggests I will wind up dropping all the low AC party members first in every fight and that will have a profound impact at the table. Not as if the rest of the party isn't already annoyed enough with the (Avenger) power gamer.

 

[Lauberfen]

His AC is only 2 higher than the defenders, who themselves could be slightly higher (+2 layered plate [11], Large shield [2], Level [3].

That's actually quite a small difference, and he'll be much more fragile once you do hit.

I'd throw in same level soldiers, or maybe +1 (but not higher- high level soldiers are no fun for anyone). They'll have +13 to hit, so will hit him on 14+, which is a fair amount.

Also throw in atacks not against armour- there are lots of these, even at heroir. many artillery monsters go straight for reflex.

Finally, make sure the monsters keep attacking him (those that might hit)- he'll look much softer than the tanks.

 

[keterys]

It may be better to think of him as an odd type of defender, cause honestly that's a lot more what he is at that point. Get in the back lines and cause problems while being hard to hit but frankly no more threatening than a fighter.