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Help for the Environment rules for a Black Hole 3.5E/PF1
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<blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 8576139" data-attributes="member: 326"><p>Hey amigo! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Interesting discussion - giving me lots of help and ideas here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If we simply rate the Sun as fire damage then it can be easily protected against - but I don't think that tells the full picture.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Seems like a bit of a handwave by Pathfinder rather than a legitimate attempt to replicate the effects with in game mechanics.</p><p></p><p>I mean I can take Efreeti being immune to fire. But Pathfinder is saying they are Immune to:</p><p></p><p>Fire, Nuclear Explosions, Radiation, Electromagnetic Waves, Gravity and Pressure.</p><p></p><p>That's quite a list.</p><p></p><p>The surface of the Sun should be WORSE than taking a nuke to the face every round, yet Pathfinder have a House Cat as more of a threat to an Efreet than standing in a vast nuclear reactor.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At the time I wrote that in I hadn't really considered Epic Environments as potentially interesting Hazards. I was probably inspired by a Thor comic where he ventures into the Core of the Sun to speak with the deity Atum.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At what point does fire become Plasma? At what point is Plasma seen as Quark-Gluon Plasma? When does Quark-Gluon Plasma become universe melting Planck temperature?</p><p></p><p>Plasma might not be 'Fire' but possibly treated as some Fire-Lightning Hybrid.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fire Immunity is exactly that.</p><p></p><p>But when its so hot atoms start to break down is that simply still Fire Damage....or something else?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm happy with that - I have similar ideas.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What if Radiation is half poison + half necrotic damage (to replicate the cellular decay)?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Lets say the Pressure at the Core of the Sun deals 1000 (force?) damage per round...at what measure of deity can you ignore (with DR) or regenerate it enough to ignore it? I'm guessing probably not at the Demigod level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Disintegration might be half force damage + half thunder damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So by your own admission you probably wouldn't say a Demigod or Lesser God could survive a trip to the Sun.</p><p></p><p>As regards Apollo or Pelor certainly some portfolios are going to provide extra immunity - that's always a given. But that's not the point. the point is that if we want to use the Sun as an epic environment/hazard that we are assuming all the PCs are NOT immune to its effects but instead somewhat capable of surviving it for some period of time.</p><p></p><p>Just because Pelor/Apollo can survive a star unharmed, doesn't mean they should necessarily be able to survive a Black Hole unharmed. So different gods may be better at surviving different stellar/cosmic environments.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's all fine and dandy, but it is still just a backdrop for the encounter - not a feature OF the encounter.</p><p></p><p>Where there is no risk, there is no reward. The players were not RISKING anything by travelling to that environment which could in no way injure or hamper them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In D&D you can have traps or hazards which can injure player characters. I don't consider them bogging the game down.</p><p></p><p>As regards dying on some backwater gas giant...if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If it doesn't present a danger to the party then they face no mechanics themselves.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I completely agree with this - it doesn't always have to be a threat.</p><p></p><p>But we need the possibility that SOME environments CAN be a threat for Epic PCs or Immortal PCs or Sidereal PCs etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can still have that. What I am suggesting is that if you are using the black hole environment then have it affect the PCs in some way, especially first time through. They might eventually become powerful enough as to where the Sun, Black Holes etc. are zero threat, then they can look back and remember the time they almost died in that black hole (or whatever).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you threw a God into a Volcano, would it take fire damage. That seems a bit flimsy. Now if a Volcano was conjured with Epic Magic then I could see this line of reasoning (as was my initial stance).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to be thinking in black and white terms here.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying you just die from it. I'm suggesting it has some measure of negative effects/damage which you will take dependent upon your time spent there or saving throws passed/failed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Players make a Con Save each round at the start of their turn or take 2d10* force damage from the pressure of the ocean. Simple.</p><p></p><p>*or whatever</p><p></p><p>From what you have said above it seems to suggest you are completely against using environments as hazards for anything, ever.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Access doesn't always mean immunity. Having the environment be a threat puts a time factor to encounters, giving them an added level of danger.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Planar adaption is not (or in my opinion should not be) Nuclear explosion adaption. The Plane of fire is just fire. Its not half a dozen different forces (several force based, like Gravity, Pressure and Explosions) conspiring to destroy you and rip atoms to shreds.</p><p></p><p>Beings that can live in a Sun need to be nuke-resistant Overgods or better, not Efreeti, Salamanders and that sort of creature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> See book 3 for details (if I ever get that far).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree, I was just throwing an idea out there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>...and if that happens you need mechanics to cover THAT particular Epic Environment.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do your players ever run into threats from Monsters and NPCs in these environments?</p><p></p><p>If so, are they exploring anything without the constant potential threat of them dying?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm fine with establishing atmosphere and backdrop - not every environment needs to be a threat.</p><p></p><p>But by the same token why can we not have some environments be a threat to gods of a certain power? I don't see why you are necessarily against the principle of this?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>...which then requires the environmental mechanics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Temple</strong>: As far as I now know the core of the sun would be pitch black and simply the violent reactions of condensed atoms with no space for light in between.</p><p></p><p>What if the Temple was on a cube shaped rock orbiting within the Corona of the Sun and the temple itself was slowly rotating meaning that you could ignore the full strength of the Sun while standing in the shadowy areas, but these would change every round as the temple spun - think of the temple itself as a sort of stonehenge layout.</p><p></p><p>Once the inhabiting deity/overgod etc. is bloodied, they decide to rotate the temple around a vertical axis as well meaning within 3 rounds you'll be taking the full solar damage.</p><p></p><p><strong>Hammer</strong>: Who the heck is going to be able to use such a hammer anyway?</p><p></p><p>If 100% Orichalcum alone has a Str requirement of 115 to wield then you need to be a greater power/elder one, or strength portfolio deity intermediate god+ to even consider it.</p><p></p><p>For a weapon made from a black hole that minimum requirement goes up again.</p><p></p><p>If every Demigod can wield a weapon forged from a black hole then it would only cheapen having one.</p><p></p><p><strong>Golem</strong>: Should be straightforward enough, depending upon how we rate Pressure damage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Upper_Krust, post: 8576139, member: 326"] Hey amigo! :) Interesting discussion - giving me lots of help and ideas here. If we simply rate the Sun as fire damage then it can be easily protected against - but I don't think that tells the full picture. Seems like a bit of a handwave by Pathfinder rather than a legitimate attempt to replicate the effects with in game mechanics. I mean I can take Efreeti being immune to fire. But Pathfinder is saying they are Immune to: Fire, Nuclear Explosions, Radiation, Electromagnetic Waves, Gravity and Pressure. That's quite a list. The surface of the Sun should be WORSE than taking a nuke to the face every round, yet Pathfinder have a House Cat as more of a threat to an Efreet than standing in a vast nuclear reactor. At the time I wrote that in I hadn't really considered Epic Environments as potentially interesting Hazards. I was probably inspired by a Thor comic where he ventures into the Core of the Sun to speak with the deity Atum. At what point does fire become Plasma? At what point is Plasma seen as Quark-Gluon Plasma? When does Quark-Gluon Plasma become universe melting Planck temperature? Plasma might not be 'Fire' but possibly treated as some Fire-Lightning Hybrid. Fire Immunity is exactly that. But when its so hot atoms start to break down is that simply still Fire Damage....or something else? I'm happy with that - I have similar ideas. What if Radiation is half poison + half necrotic damage (to replicate the cellular decay)? Lets say the Pressure at the Core of the Sun deals 1000 (force?) damage per round...at what measure of deity can you ignore (with DR) or regenerate it enough to ignore it? I'm guessing probably not at the Demigod level. Disintegration might be half force damage + half thunder damage. So by your own admission you probably wouldn't say a Demigod or Lesser God could survive a trip to the Sun. As regards Apollo or Pelor certainly some portfolios are going to provide extra immunity - that's always a given. But that's not the point. the point is that if we want to use the Sun as an epic environment/hazard that we are assuming all the PCs are NOT immune to its effects but instead somewhat capable of surviving it for some period of time. Just because Pelor/Apollo can survive a star unharmed, doesn't mean they should necessarily be able to survive a Black Hole unharmed. So different gods may be better at surviving different stellar/cosmic environments. That's all fine and dandy, but it is still just a backdrop for the encounter - not a feature OF the encounter. Where there is no risk, there is no reward. The players were not RISKING anything by travelling to that environment which could in no way injure or hamper them. In D&D you can have traps or hazards which can injure player characters. I don't consider them bogging the game down. As regards dying on some backwater gas giant...if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If it doesn't present a danger to the party then they face no mechanics themselves. I completely agree with this - it doesn't always have to be a threat. But we need the possibility that SOME environments CAN be a threat for Epic PCs or Immortal PCs or Sidereal PCs etc. You can still have that. What I am suggesting is that if you are using the black hole environment then have it affect the PCs in some way, especially first time through. They might eventually become powerful enough as to where the Sun, Black Holes etc. are zero threat, then they can look back and remember the time they almost died in that black hole (or whatever). If you threw a God into a Volcano, would it take fire damage. That seems a bit flimsy. Now if a Volcano was conjured with Epic Magic then I could see this line of reasoning (as was my initial stance). You seem to be thinking in black and white terms here. I'm not saying you just die from it. I'm suggesting it has some measure of negative effects/damage which you will take dependent upon your time spent there or saving throws passed/failed. Players make a Con Save each round at the start of their turn or take 2d10* force damage from the pressure of the ocean. Simple. *or whatever From what you have said above it seems to suggest you are completely against using environments as hazards for anything, ever. Access doesn't always mean immunity. Having the environment be a threat puts a time factor to encounters, giving them an added level of danger. Planar adaption is not (or in my opinion should not be) Nuclear explosion adaption. The Plane of fire is just fire. Its not half a dozen different forces (several force based, like Gravity, Pressure and Explosions) conspiring to destroy you and rip atoms to shreds. Beings that can live in a Sun need to be nuke-resistant Overgods or better, not Efreeti, Salamanders and that sort of creature. ;) See book 3 for details (if I ever get that far). I agree, I was just throwing an idea out there. ...and if that happens you need mechanics to cover THAT particular Epic Environment. Do your players ever run into threats from Monsters and NPCs in these environments? If so, are they exploring anything without the constant potential threat of them dying? I'm fine with establishing atmosphere and backdrop - not every environment needs to be a threat. But by the same token why can we not have some environments be a threat to gods of a certain power? I don't see why you are necessarily against the principle of this? ...which then requires the environmental mechanics. [B]Temple[/B]: As far as I now know the core of the sun would be pitch black and simply the violent reactions of condensed atoms with no space for light in between. What if the Temple was on a cube shaped rock orbiting within the Corona of the Sun and the temple itself was slowly rotating meaning that you could ignore the full strength of the Sun while standing in the shadowy areas, but these would change every round as the temple spun - think of the temple itself as a sort of stonehenge layout. Once the inhabiting deity/overgod etc. is bloodied, they decide to rotate the temple around a vertical axis as well meaning within 3 rounds you'll be taking the full solar damage. [B]Hammer[/B]: Who the heck is going to be able to use such a hammer anyway? If 100% Orichalcum alone has a Str requirement of 115 to wield then you need to be a greater power/elder one, or strength portfolio deity intermediate god+ to even consider it. For a weapon made from a black hole that minimum requirement goes up again. If every Demigod can wield a weapon forged from a black hole then it would only cheapen having one. [B]Golem[/B]: Should be straightforward enough, depending upon how we rate Pressure damage. [/QUOTE]
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Help for the Environment rules for a Black Hole 3.5E/PF1
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