Help, I'm on fire and being eaten by rats!

[Piratecat]

I'm curious about how ongoing damage and saving throws are treated. I think I know the correct answer to these, but it's worth asking:

1. You've been hit by two identical fire attacks that burn you for 5 dmg (save ends.) How much damage do you take the round before you save? How much damage do you take the round after you save once?

2. You've been hit by a fire attack that burns you for 5 dmg (save ends), and a bleeding attack that damages you for 5 dmg (save ends.) How much damage do you take the round before you save? How much damage do you take the round you make one save, but fail the other?

3. You are hit by two identical immobilize attacks (save ends). You save once. Are you still immobilized?

4. You are hit by an attack that specifies "dazed and 5 ongoing damage (save ends both)." Do you make one save, or two?

Thanks!

 

[Obryn]

I'm not a rules ninja, but I want to post how I'm running it so others can tell me "UR DOIN IT RONG!"

And I might be! However, this has worked so far.

1. You've been hit by two identical fire attacks that burn you for 5 dmg (save ends.) How much damage do you take the round before you save? How much damage do you take the round after you save once?

You take 5 damage each round. The ongoing fire damage doesn't stack, since they're from the same power, but both conditions are still present. You will need to save against both to shake them off.

2. You've been hit by a fire attack that burns you for 5 dmg (save ends), and a bleeding attack that damages you for 5 dmg (save ends.) How much damage do you take the round before you save? How much damage do you take the round you make one save, but fail the other?

10 damage the first round, since these are different damage sources. If you save against one, it's 5 damage the next round.

3. You are hit by two identical immobilize attacks (save ends). You save once. Are you still immobilized?

As I run it, yes. You have both conditions, but their effects don't stack (whatever that would mean in this case).

4. You are hit by an attack that specifies "dazed and 5 ongoing damage (save ends both)." Do you make one save, or two?

A single save ends both.

-O

 

[keterys]

1. 5. 0.
2. 10. 5. (ph278 left column, 1/3 down for both #1 and #2)
3. No (ph278 right column) If the powers were identical except in name, though (ie, becoming separate / multiple powers), you'd still be immobilized.
4. one (ph279 left column, 2/3 down)

 

[turk128]

1) Only one of the same type of on-going damage at a time so you only need to save for the higher one.

2) What Obryn said.

3) see #1

4) What Obryn said.

EDIT: keterys is brutally straightforward

 

[Piratecat]

Good deal. Thanks, guys!

 

[keterys]

Do expect a lot of table variation on this one, fwiw

 

[DracoSuave]

You're really asking about two seperate things here. One is about ongoing damage, and the other is about durations of similiar effects.

So, first, ongoing damage of the same type (including untyped, regardless of source) does not stack. Ongoing damage of two different types do stack.

Secondly, if the same effect or condition applies, only the one with the longest duration applies.

So:

1. You've been hit by two identical fire attacks that burn you for 5 dmg (save ends.) How much damage do you take the round before you save? How much damage do you take the round after you save once?

Assuming that both are ongoing 5 fire damage (the damage type is -critical- when dealing with ongoing damage), then you do not stack them. Then you have the same effect, so only one applies, and thusly the other is ignored.

So, you end up with ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends) and you take no damage after you save once.

2. You've been hit by a fire attack that burns you for 5 dmg (save ends), and a bleeding attack that damages you for 5 dmg (save ends.) How much damage do you take the round before you save? How much damage do you take the round you make one save, but fail the other?

Assuming the bleeding attack is ongoing 5 [untyped] damage, you have in this instance:
ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends)
ongoing 5 damage (save ends).

Both are different types, and are different effects and are thusly -both- applied. The beginning of your next turn, you'll take 10 damage, 5 of which is fire. Then, if you only saved against one, you'd have 5 more damage your next turn.

Keep track of the damage types tho, a tiefling, for example, might take no fire damage at all from resistance.

3. You are hit by two identical immobilize attacks (save ends). You save once. Are you still immobilized?

You have two effects, both of which are immobilized, with duration (save ends). This means that you only apply one of them. The other is forgotten. This means you have:

immobilized (save ends), and when you save against that you are no longer immobilized.

4. You are hit by an attack that specifies "dazed and 5 ongoing damage (save ends both)." Do you make one save, or two?

One save. (save ends both) means that one save ends both effects.

Thanks!

Also, a 5th case. If you were dazed (save ends) and then you got dazed and 5 ongoing damage (save ends both) then the dazed (save ends) is folded into the new dazed+5 ongoing damage. They are considered two seperate effects with a common condition for ending.

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Interesting thread, and lots of great input.

1) Like obryn, my group plays both conditions exist(i.e. you have to save twice) but you only take damage once at most per round. This seems to be incorrect based upon page 278. Like keterys said expect a lot of table variation here.

2) My group plays this as 10/5 which is pretty much the uniform answer on this thread but mine and most of the answers on this thread seem to be wrong (or at least possibly wrong depending on interpretation) with regard to this one. According to the last bullet on the left on page 278 since bleeding has no type it should be rolled into one. You could read this differently and say that their implying "no type" is a type. The last sentence basically implies that if you take ongoing 10 (of any type because they don't specifically say of no type like they did for the 5) it supersedes the ongoing 5 of no type.

3) We play this as two saves also but it appears that one might be the correct answer. Keterys point about two different types of attack both causing immobilize brings up another situation. Is this still one save if you play the one save method?

4) clearly 1 save.

One more question that popped in my head. If you're slowed by a sleep spell, when you fail the save and become unconscious vs sleep are you still suffering from slow as well? We play no, but why not? Along those same lines, if you're immobilized by a ghoul and then hit for a stun are you still immobilized as well?

 

[Nebulous]

This came up last session. Several characters were on fire with ongoing damage and wanted to spend standard actions to pat the flames out. Basically, this was giving them two saving throws per round to extinguish the fire. One player thought there was a rule somewhere for this but we didn't waste time looking for it. I said if they took a standard and move they could get the extra save, just to keep the game going.

But is there really a rule for this? I'm hesitant to give characters two saves vs. ongoing damage, plus a Heal check from adjacent characters for a third save. Plus, if the PCs do it, monsters can do, which would give them additional chances to cancel ongoing damage, thus drawing out fights.

Or is their free saving throw supposed to be them patting the fire out?

So, what would you do?

 

[webrunner]

Also, a 5th case. If you were dazed (save ends) and then you got dazed and 5 ongoing damage (save ends both) then the dazed (save ends) is folded into the new dazed+5 ongoing damage. They are considered two seperate effects with a common condition for ending.

Now here's a scratcher:
You get two effects. on eis "You are blinded and are dazed, save ends both"
and the other is "You are deafened and dazed, save ends both"

What happens then?