Help me figure out grappling

[R_kajdi]

Okay, I'm running a campaign with a mostly new group of players. We did a little mock combat last week, so people could make a couple adjustments to their characters if things didn't work out right for them. One of my players is doing a grappling monk (so has Improved Grapple), and has Earth's Embrace as a feat from Complete Warrior. Having him do his thing during combat shows me exactly how little I understand grappling. I'm going to list the steps to the process as I currently see them:

1. Declare a grapple, and take an AoO (Imp. Grapple avoids this)
2. Make a touch attack to hit.
3. Make an opposed grapple check to take hold.
4. Deal unarmed damage if you take hold.

So good so far, yes? the next part ends up confusing me:

1. Can you grapple off of a flurry of blows attack? If so, can he grapple and then pin with a second attack in the same round?
2. You don't normally do damage while pinning, correct? Earth's Embrace allows it to do 1d12 (+ Str?) damage, but after a few levels, there just seems to be little point in pinning.
3. A monster determines its number of grapple attempts off of its BAB. What happens if it grapples as a Grab off of a 2nd, 3rd attack? Can it make extra grapple attempts then?
4. While in a grapple at the beginning of the turn, can a monk still flurry? How does this affect grapple attempts?

As best I can tell, the big thing this monk can do is flurry of blows, grapple for D6+1, then pin for 1D12+1. But it seems like after a bunch of levels, pinning will suck, because it will be doing less damage then a normal hit. Am I missing something here?

Talking RAW is what I'm mostly looking for, but if anyone has house rules or the like to make grappling more sensical, feel free to share them.

 

[Jin_Kataki]

The way I understand it from how we do it in the game I play in is this... and it may differ from the RAW.

Subject A declared he wants to grapple subject B

As Subject moves in close to subject B to make this attempt subject B gets the oppurtunity to fend off the advance with an attack provided he has not used his AoO already that round. If said attack connects it interupts Subject A's grapple attempt.

If Subject B's attack fails then make opposing grapple checks. If Subject B loses this opposed roll he is grappled.

Now as far as any of these feats and abilities and what not for the monk go. I don't know anything about it. I have never heard of doing damage with a grapple unless the subject is pinned and you are taking negatives to attack him while you have him pinned. Now again the way we do it may not be by the way it is supposed to be done. However since it seems to me that the normal purpose of grapple is to subdue and not to damage I think the way you are describing it becoming weak at higher levels makes sense. Anyway that is just my two cents I don't think it really answers any of your issues.

 

[Kat']

The rules for grappling are quite hard to understand, but the SRD's pretty clear about anything you asked.

1. Declare a grapple, and take an AoO (Imp. Grapple avoids this)
2. Make a touch attack to hit.
3. Make an opposed grapple check to take hold.
4. Deal unarmed damage if you take hold.

So good so far, yes?

Yup.

1. Can you grapple off of a flurry of blows attack? If so, can he grapple and then pin with a second attack in the same round?

Yes. A grapple attempt is an attack, a pin is a grapple attempt. Multiple attacks, multiple attempts.

2. You don't normally do damage while pinning, correct? Earth's Embrace allows it to do 1d12 (+ Str?) damage, but after a few levels, there just seems to be little point in pinning.

You can attempt damage as usual, at the cost of a grapple attempt.

Pinning is good. You can gag a pinned opponent so he can't speak (no spells with verbal components, no magic items with command word). Your opponent also has -4 AC against your friends, allowing them to snuff him easily. You can move your opponent. You can restrain him from using items. Lots of options!

3. A monster determines its number of grapple attempts off of its BAB. What happens if it grapples as a Grab off of a 2nd, 3rd attack? Can it make extra grapple attempts then?

Monsters do not get iterrative attacks. As long as they've got attacks they can use them for grapple checks, but it hasn't much to do with their BAB (correct me if I'm wrong).

4. While in a grapple at the beginning of the turn, can a monk still flurry? How does this affect grapple attempts?

Sure. He just gets more grapple attempts.

As best I can tell, the big thing this monk can do is flurry of blows, grapple for D6+1, then pin for 1D12+1. But it seems like after a bunch of levels, pinning will suck, because it will be doing less damage then a normal hit. Am I missing something here?

The point is at high levels, the monk will fail his grapples, 'cause Grapple needs two things that the monk doesn't have: BAB, and Size modifiers. You want grappling, go for Psychic Warrior. Not Monk. Or better Monk 1 /PW x for the free Improved Grapple .

 

[R_kajdi]

You can attempt damage as usual, at the cost of a grapple attempt.

That's the other thing I never figured out. Why would you damage in the grapple like this when you could just attack at -4 normally while in the grapple? Is it just a case of doing whichever is easier in the monk's case? I know animal and such should fight in the grapple, because it does way more damage.

Pinning is good. You can gag a pinned opponent so he can't speak (no spells with verbal components, no magic items with command word). Your opponent also has -4 AC against your friends, allowing them to snuff him easily. You can move your opponent. You can restrain him from using items. Lots of options!

So pinning is more like a submission hold kind of thing, and grappling is the pre-hold struggle. Got it now.

Monsters do not get iterrative attacks. As long as they've got attacks they can use them for grapple checks, but it hasn't much to do with their BAB (correct me if I'm wrong).

This is the part that confuses me. Does this mean a ghoul (with claw/claw/bite) would get one grapple try or three? I thought I saw that grapple tries were based off BAB irregardless.

Sure. He just gets more grapple attempts.

This is also confusing. Does a guy with two weapon fighting get more grapple attempts also?

The point is at high levels, the monk will fail his grapples, 'cause Grapple needs two things that the monk doesn't have: BAB, and Size modifiers. You want grappling, go for Psychic Warrior. Not Monk. Or better Monk 1 /PW x for the free Improved Grapple .

He's got cunning grappler, so the size issue is half mitigated already, and his BAB should be okay from 5 levels of reaping mauler. I'm not saying he's overpowered, I was just trying to figure out if I screwed something up with the grapple rules.

 

[Gansk]

The number of grapple checks that can be attempted is based on BAB, regardless of the type of class or creature that is grappling. The exception to this rule are creatures with Improved Grab, who can trigger a free grapple check when they hit with a natural weapon.

Once the grapple has been initiated, the two basic options that a grappler can perform are

1) Make a grapple check to damage the opponent, move the opponent, pin the opponent, etc. Once again, the grappler can do this as many times as BAB allows.

2) Attack the opponent's AC with a light or natural weapon at -4 to hit. How many times this can be done is debatable. The Wizards site has flip-flopped on this issue in their Rules of the Game article on grappling. Apparently the Rules Compendium has stated that only one attack per round can be made using this option, which I agree is preferable. Creatures with the rake special ability get extra attacks as an exception to the rule, and these attacks are not at -4 to hit.

 

[Infiniti2000]

re: (2), it's not debatable with light manufactured weapons. It's clearly stated that you can do it multiple times based on BAB. The controversy comes up with natural weapons.

Note also that once a creature initiatives a grapple with improved grab after taking attacks with natural weapons, his round is over (unless he used the -20 option).

Note also that there is debate surrounding flurries and things like grapple attempts and trips (and everything else under the sun).

 

[Kat']

2) Attack the opponent's AC with a light or natural weapon at -4 to hit. How many times this can be done is debatable. The Wizards site has flip-flopped on this issue in their Rules of the Game article on grappling. Apparently the Rules Compendium has stated that only one attack per round can be made using this option, which I agree is preferable. Creatures with the rake special ability get extra attacks as an exception to the rule, and these attacks are not at -4 to hit.

SRD states that attacking with a light weapon in a grapple is a standard action, and not something you can do using a grapple attempt.

As to the why grappling rather than attacking...
Grappling: BAB + Strength + Size, many times per round.
Attack: BAB + Str/Dex + buffs -4, once per round.
Situational...

He's got cunning grappler, so the size issue is half mitigated already, and his BAB should be okay from 5 levels of reaping mauler. I'm not saying he's overpowered, I was just trying to figure out if I screwed something up with the grapple rules.

Reaping Mauler... yuck. Check out Justicar, it's a far better grappler than Reaping Mauler. And take some levels in Psychic Warrior so you get Expansion, Animal affinity and Grip of Iron.

Don't forget once: grappling is very situational, and not the thing to do with every opponent. Many, particularly at high levels, are immune to it. Boost Grappling if you want, but don't overspecialize or you will be useless. And unfortunately, Reaping Mauler is overspecialized, while Justicar and PW aren't.

 

[R_kajdi]

Don't forget once: grappling is very situational, and not the thing to do with every opponent. Many, particularly at high levels, are immune to it. Boost Grappling if you want, but don't overspecialize or you will be useless. And unfortunately, Reaping Mauler is overspecialized, while Justicar and PW aren't.

Any more mainstream suggestions? We're not using psionics in this campaign (new players, so we're minimizing extra systems) and Justicar doesn't fit the character's background.

Also, since the jury is apparently still out on the natural attack/flurry question, any suggestions on which one is better for normal use? Does either answer really imbalance the campaign? I'm more interested in providing a fun experience for people then going 100% RAW, so feel free to suggest smart but unsupported solutions.

 

[brehobit]

Slightly off topic, the Bo9S stance that gives constrict could be really really scary with earth's embrace and improved grapple. I think you'd be at something like 1d12+STR plus 2d6+1.5STR for damage. Wow, hand that to a giant and combats end really quickly.

Frost giant Monk 1/Crusader 2 could pull it off.

CR 14, +38 grapple check, 4 grapples/round doing d12+2d6+30 damage. Against someone with a touch AC of 26 and a grapple check of +29 (both pretty good at level 14) you'd expect something like 3.95 hits at 43.5 damage each, or more than 160 points/round.

Ouch.

I'm I missing something?

Mark

(edit, you don't get the Earth embrace damage on the first grapple check, so drop that to 140 in the first round and 160 on any additional round)