Help me minmax a rogue bruser

[Tyrrell]

I've been away from D&D for about a year (there are lots of other games out there). I've not used the 3.5 rules previously. My group is starting up a pretty loose 3.5 game (use whatever you want from the class books and race books, bring in whatever you want from other sources and we'll discuss it). I'd like to choose a set of feats to make my character a combat monster.

We'll be starting with third level characters and the game will be largely wilderness centered (the other characters are at this point a druid two rangers and a sorcerer.

The character that I'll play will start off as a human rogue 2 Barbarian 1 and will continue to advance as a rogue. My concept is a ort of rogue in barbarian's clothing. the Barbarian level will give the charcater 40' movement, rage once per day and proficency in all martial weapons.

The stats that I'll be using are Str 18 Con 15 Dx13 In12 Wi10 Ch13 (we roll stats rather than using point buy)

I want the character to focus on using a big two handed weapon (such as a great axe). i was thinking of taking power attack and cleave for two of his three feats (because cleave rocks and power attack might actually be useful for two handed weapons now that its been changed (I'll have to work out average damages to be certain)).

What feats woud work that I forgot about or never heard about?

I have 2500 starting gold I think that with the lack of healing in the party I'll purchase a wand of CLW and put as many ranks as possible into use magic device. That leaves me with 1750 gold. What would be good equipment?

 

[Ace]

I've been away from D&D for about a year (there are lots of other games out there). I've not used the 3.5 rules previously. My group is starting up a pretty loose 3.5 game (use whatever you want from the class books and race books, bring in whatever you want from other sources and we'll discuss it). I'd like to choose a set of feats to make my character a combat monster.

We'll be starting with third level characters and the game will be largely wilderness centered (the other characters are at this point a druid two rangers and a sorcerer.

The character that I'll play will start off as a human rogue 2 Barbarian 1 and will continue to advance as a rogue. My concept is a ort of rogue in barbarian's clothing. the Barbarian level will give the charcater 40' movement, rage once per day and proficency in all martial weapons.

The stats that I'll be using are Str 18 Con 15 Dx13 In12 Wi10 Ch13 (we roll stats rather than using point buy)

I want the character to focus on using a big two handed weapon (such as a great axe). i was thinking of taking power attack and cleave for two of his three feats (because cleave rocks and power attack might actually be useful for two handed weapons now that its been changed (I'll have to work out average damages to be certain)).

What feats woud work that I forgot about or never heard about?

I have 2500 starting gold I think that with the lack of healing in the party I'll purchase a wand of CLW and put as many ranks as possible into use magic device. That leaves me with 1750 gold. What would be good equipment?

Its Rogue Bruiser BTW --

Personally with those stats I would go mostly Barbarian and not Rogue -- stealth and sneak attack are nice but your stats really support big crunch guy better --

I would suggest Rogue 3 Barbarian X instead -- way more HP and better BAB without losing the Rogueness that is your concept

Still if you prefer your current set up I would suggest the following kit at start

MW chain shirt (your best AC)

buckler

great axe (+1 if you can afford it)

basic kit


Your feats IMO should be Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Toughness (1hp per level) 2 more --- HMM Elusive Target (tactical feat from Complete Warrior -- very potent) and that last feat slots can be whatever you like Improved Feint for static fighting or Great Cleave or something nasty to work with crit


put your level ups into Con (extra HP) at 4 and Dex at 8 (extra AC and initiative) -- after that it is up to you -- I think Dex would be good than 1 point in Charisma at 20 --

if your GM uses Uneaathed Arcana get whirling frenzy (for speed attacks instead of power) if you like. You can also use the Wilderness Rogue varient -- you aren't as good at Info gathering and the like but you get woodland stride and some skill synergies -- of you do that take Tracking as your feat and fill in for the ranger

Also as an option you can also take up to 2 levels of fighter (if Human or Half Elf only) -- this will give you 2 more combat feats and a few extra HP at the cost of some Skills

As far as prestige classes -- hmm thats up to your campaign

Magic Items for you

Boot of Striding Springing

Magic Chain Shirt -- only -1 to your skills and its +4 (+magic AC)

Magic Buckler (-1 to hit for +1 AC and whatever magic you can get)

Magic Axe (+x keen maybe)

Amulet of Natural Armor (or Health for the HP)

Gloves of Dex

Belt of Giant Strength

Magic Arrows (for ye olde longbow)

Stealth enhancing Items (ring of invisibility if you can get it)

Cloak of Resistance

Your strategies are as follows -- manuver to flank with the Axe and lay into your foes -- perform as Rogue the rest of the time -- you are basically a heavy hitting rogue. Just a warning though -- be carefull you are still a bit fragile --

assuming absolutely average rolls for HP you will have 28.5 HP at 4th level -- good but not great

By the time you are 20th you will have 156 -- decent but still not like a tank --

When you can flank and use sneak attack you will do -- 1d12+ 6 + powerblow + magic +10d6 -- very decent chance of a cleave

 

[Kobold Stew]

Cool idea for a character. I can't do a full write-up for you now, but consider the following.

1. Take the first level as rogue, the second as Barb. You lose a few hit points, but in exchange get many more skill points to start.

2. When you take your barb level, you will be able to get five points (level 2 +3) in a skill normally inaccessible to rogues -- ride, handle animal, or survival. All three have wilderness goodness, but you should pick one and put five points into it. Others are possible, but will be twice the cost for the rogue. (For skill allocations, see 5 below.)

3. Are the stats fixed? Specifically, can you swap Int for Cha? I ask because you really want access to Combat Expertise, which can give you up to +5 more AC. This should be a primary concern, since ytour dex is (comparatively) low for a rogue.

4. In any case, as you no doubt know, boosting Dex and Con with your stat bumps should be automatic for you.

5. Your damage is going to come from flanking and sneak attack. Consequently, your rogue skills must include maxed bluff and tumble (I'd do climb and swim too, since you have the strength). And Escape Artist, to get our of grapples. And at least 5 levels of balance. Tumbling w/ 40' movement is good.

6. As a human, the Dodge/Mobility tree is within your access and again could be better for you than cleave. You need to find ways to stay alive.

There's a start for you.

Hope this helps,

Kobold Stew.

 

[Tyrrell]

3. Are the stats fixed? Specifically, can you swap Int for Cha? I ask because you really want access to Combat Expertise, which can give you up to +5 more AC. This should be a primary concern, since ytour dex is (comparatively) low for a rogue.

That's a good suggestion I think that I'll take it. There are some fun things up the tree from expertise aren't there?

4. In any case, as you no doubt know, boosting Dex and Con with your stat bumps should be automatic for you.

Perhaps one point each in order to get them up to the next bonus but I'd like to do strength as well and doing both con and dex pushes off a 20 strength until level 16. Still, if I put my 4th level bonus into con I'll have plenty of time to debate str vs dex before level 8.

5. Your damage is going to come from flanking and sneak attack. Consequently, your rogue skills must include maxed bluff and tumble (I'd do climb and swim too, since you have the strength). And Escape Artist, to get our of grapples. And at least 5 levels of balance. Tumbling w/ 40' movement is good.

Bluff and tumble were always going to be maxed. I hadn't considered balance and escape artist I'll read them over again before ruleing out the possibility.

6. As a human, the Dodge/Mobility tree is within your access and again could be better for you than cleave. You need to find ways to stay alive.

I was thinking that if I max my tumble score I won't need mobility past level 8 or so and it would become a useless feat. Did something change in 3.5 that I missed (or perhaps I've always been clueless)?

thanks for your help.

 

[Tyrrell]

Its Rogue Bruiser BTW --

Dang! I thought that I edited that mistake before anyone noticed.

Personally with those stats I would go mostly Barbarian and not Rogue -- stealth and sneak attack are nice but your stats really support big crunch guy better --

I would suggest Rogue 3 Barbarian X instead -- way more HP and better BAB without losing the Rogueness that is your concept

I'm keeping the rogue with a single level of barbarian. If I went with your concept I'd end up with slightly better BAB and much better hit points but vastly inferior skills. That wouldn't keep the roguness that I'm shooting for.

Still if you prefer your current set up I would suggest the following kit at start

MW chain shirt (your best AC)

buckler

great axe (+1 if you can afford it)

basic kit

I don't think that I can afford axe. Can a character use a buckler and still weild a two handed weapon?

Your feats IMO should be Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Toughness (1hp per level) 2 more --- HMM Elusive Target (tactical feat from Complete Warrior -- very potent) and that last feat slots can be whatever you like Improved Feint for static fighting or Great Cleave or something nasty to work with crit


put your level ups into Con (extra HP) at 4 and Dex at 8 (extra AC and initiative) -- after that it is up to you -- I think Dex would be good than 1 point in Charisma at 20 --

Again with the dodge and mobility I like to move around as much as the next guy but won't tumble eventually make it irrelevant? As for spring attack, I've never found it to be as cool as it seems (except when it was used with a pair of characters who synchronised their attacks, both had reach weapons and used their AoO's to improved trip their opponents in 3.0). Could you give me a situation where I'll really want to be spring attacking?

What does elusive target do?

Where can I find improved toughness? (Do I have to take normal toughness first?)

if your GM uses Uneaathed Arcana get whirling frenzy (for speed attacks instead of power) if you like. You can also use the Wilderness Rogue varient -- you aren't as good at Info gathering and the like but you get woodland stride and some skill synergies -- of you do that take Tracking as your feat and fill in for the ranger

What does whirling frenzy do?

We've got two rangers and a druid it may be a wilderness game but we don't need more wilderness skills.


thanks for your input.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

See if you can use the Whirling Frenzy rage variant from UA. IIRC, it's available for free on the WotC site, and looks tasty for a barbarian/rogue.

 

[Storyteller01]

Could you give me a situation where I'll really want to be spring attacking?

Given your reduced hp from taking rogue as a primary class, that would be anytime you attack. You'll also need something to offset your lack of armor, especially if your planning on using the usual roguish skills.

Not to mention, if they start chasing you around they lose their full attack option. PLay your cards right, get them into a flankable position, and your sneak attack damage can do the rest.

One last thing: no matter how high your ranks in tumble, you can always roll a one. If you have an evil DM, he may use an opposed skill roll or Ref save to counter (He used he's 'Knowledge: Tactics' skill to determine your escape routes, and blocked it). May not be RAW, and I don't know your GM, but strange things do happen...

My two pesos.

 

[Tyrrell]

See if you can use the Whirling Frenzy rage variant from UA. IIRC, it's available for free on the WotC site, and looks tasty for a barbarian/rogue.

Took me a while to find it

"Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy

A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 17th level (when a barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

You can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that you use any other form of rage (or similar ability)."

So the strength bonus to hit is sucked up by the multiple action penalty. But I would get the same damage bonus and an additional attack (which would be especially nice when I'm using a two-handed weapon). I wouldn't get the hit point bonus but I would get an AC bonus (so raging to keep myself from droping would not be a viable tactic) 2 hp per level or 10% off the oppnent's chance to hit?

this sounds like more fun than the rage version in the PHB. It also sounds more powewrful so we might not let it into the game.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Staggering strike, from complete adventurer. Basically - whenever you make a sneak attack, your opponent makes a save (DC=damage dealt) or he's staggered, meaning he can only take a move or attack action. It's nasty. But wait 'till your BAB hits 6.

In fact BAB 6 seems to be an optimal point for rogues. The aforementioned elusive target needs it too.

Oh, and elusive target basically
1. Makes power attacking foes lose the bonus (but not the penalty) of power attacking you.
2. Lets you redirect one attack around from a flanking foe into his ally.

 

[Kobold Stew]

thanks for your help.

No sweat.

The Expertise tree does have some niceness (improved trip being the best). If you don't like the benefits of Dodge/Mobility, then consider Iron Will (everyone always needs a better Will save).

As for the skills, Balance is just so you can argue for synergy bonuses, fight on rough ground, etc. Esc artist, as I said, for grappling.

As for stats, given what you've said, as long as you get the Con boost, you should be fine.

The rogue is such a versatile class--I'm sure you can find a way to work it.

KS.