Help me nerf the druid

[Glade Riven]

Animal Companion is optional (either that or an extra domain), so if you are concerned about that, houserule they have to take the extra domain.

Wild shape is a bit nerfed comparied to 3.5 - If you read through the Beast Form spells, you don't take on the full stats of the critter. There are some minor stat modifications, a few special abilities gained (if that animal has one that is listed), a natural armor bonus, and I assume you gain the natural weapon of the animal (doesn't say in my PDF copy, may have been errataed as I haven't downloaded the latest).

Summoning spells are no worse than any other spellcaster that can get that spell. If it is that annoying, houserule it out.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Depends on the viewer. For me, it is because for the seat at a table for one player, a druid character brings:

• One full-progression spellcasting character, yet can morph into an very capable melee-ist
• Whatever beasts that spellcasting character spontaneously summons to the battlefield, sometimes a pair or more of creatures.
• The pet of the spellcasting character, sometimes equal or better than the worth of the party melee-ist PC.

Easily three+ character's worth of actions on a board. Most encounters are predicated on how much a character can accomplish per round, spells per round, attacks per round, actions per round. Getting items that grant extra actions per round are pretty enticing (boots of speed, belts of battle) yet the druid brings all that and more as a base class feature.

That's primarily what I see in the druid's arsenal that needs taming.

-Unless things changed from 3E, Druid has the worst spell list of any of the 4 primary casters. That counts for something.
-All the primary casters can summon. Nature's Ally are probably slightly more beefy brutes, but Summon Monster's much more versatile. You care about versatility, right?
-Is this really true? I never once found an Animal Companion in 3.5 to actually be the equal of a Fighter, even laden with buff spells (and the sheer int limitations affect combat performance sometimes). Fast forward to PF, Fighter and other martial classes (except Barbarian, which oddly became unplayable, and arguably Monk) got a boost and animal companions got significantly nerfed. Show me a statted out companion at different levels. Prove to me they actually can even compete with an equivalent level Fighter.

Actions per round: The Druid gets a companion. That's the only extra "actions" he has over others, generally! Clerics can get a companion now, too. Sorcs and Wizards have familiars, which with creative use can yield extra actions or at the very least extended range on melee touch spells. ANYONE can summon.

 

[Xendria]

I have a Druid Player in my campaign right now, let me touch on the multitude of problems he's had with his character.

- Trackless step may cover the trail of the character (scent is arguable) but it however does not cover the tracks of the party. This ability can be emulated by a 1st level druid/ranger spell, and is arguably better.

- Yes, druids are immune to Poison. Shall we talk about Paladins? Monks perhaps? Poisons are strong yes, but they are the one class that is immune. If there is a druid in the party that is immune to poisons, use them on the other 3 to 4 people that are with him. Just cause the druid is immune doesn't mean the entire party is.

- On the note of Wild Shape, let's take a "full caster" Human druid level 5. Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 10. 15 point-buy, not optimized but rounded out. You turn into ANY medium creature and only gain +2 Str, +2 AC, and an alternative movement or sense. If you turn into a small creature you only gain +2 Dex, +2 AC, +1 to Attack, -1 to CMB/CMD, and an alternative movement or sense. I'm sorry, but losing your armor (assuming it's not Wild) and gaining what? +2 Str? That is not a huge advantage in the slightest.

- Summoning creatures is strong, especially Nature's Ally. But compare it to a Conjurer with Augment Summoning, buffing his summons and party with haste, all while invisible. The druid pales in comparison.

- The Animal Companion (Depending on when it's size upgrade is) is Decent 1-5, Good 6-10, then falls behind after that. It is never as good as a well played front-line melee combatant. The Summoner's Eidolon will trump any animal companion any day.

- On the action argument. Easily 3+ characters actions are a bit much. In a situation with no enemies using crowd control, you get 3. Druid casts a spell/attacks, mediocre animal companion attacks, mediocre summon attacks. A wizard has 2, more powerful, actions (stronger spell, summoned creature) and a fighter usually does the same amount of damage the companion and summoned creature do.

Overall, you are giving the druid FAR too much credit. Is it a powerful class in the hands of a good player, yes. Are all the classes powerful in the hands of a good player, yes. Part of the responsibility of being a DM is making the game dynamic and interesting for the players. Sometimes you play to their strengths, other times you play around them. I have had to do this with all of my players, you just need to know how to play around them to create a more challenging environment instead of just throwing a big monster at them with poison

 

[Zurai]

I'm amazed at all the people who still think Wild Shape is overpowered. It's nothing but a utility ability now. Its combat usefulness to a spellcasting Druid is just about zero. It can still be a powerful combat tool, but only a Druid who sacrifices all the rest of his stats to be competent at combat in the first place. Wild Shape no longer replaces the Druid's stats, it gives him bonuses to stats instead. Your 3.5 8 strength druid is going to be worse than useless even Wild Shaped into a T-Rex.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

I'm amazed at all the people who still think Wild Shape is overpowered. It's nothing but a utility ability now. Its combat usefulness to a spellcasting Druid is just about zero. It can still be a powerful combat tool, but only a Druid who sacrifices all the rest of his stats to be competent at combat in the first place. Wild Shape no longer replaces the Druid's stats, it gives him bonuses to stats instead. Your 3.5 8 strength druid is going to be worse than useless even Wild Shaped into a T-Rex.

Agreed after first look. I had no idea they nerfed Wild Shape. In fact, without multiple monster books and Natural Spell it was never broken in the first place. Now you don't really shapeshift at all. You just look like a bear, you get somewhat stronger, your skin thickens somewhat (to compensate lack of leather armor)... and you get... hmm nothing? I don't even think bears have Scent. You don't even get natural weapons it seems, unless I have misread something.

I actually liked the druid actually becoming a typical animal specimen. Lots of options for roleplay or clever use of marginal abilities.

Hmm the only really bad stuff is casting spells while flying innocently in the sky.. which it seem can still be done (with silent spell or Natural Spell). Giving the option of flight at level 4 is just way too soon, as 99% encounters at that level cannot fly themselves and many can't even hurt fliers.

 

[Glade Riven]

The Polymorph descriptor (of which wildshape is under) states that you gain natural attacks, size changes to CMB, AC, Steath, etc (everything except stats change, unless noted specifically in the spell). It is also where you find out about your armor AC bonus being ditched in the process (although the wording implies magical bonuses on your armor still apply - just not the origenal item bonus). Eschew materials and Natural Spell feats are still avalable to allow casting in that form, and abilities (such as growing claws from a sorcerer bloodline trait) still can be used.

All this wild shape talk is giving me some ideas, though, for a shapeshifter class..

 

[Jhaelen]

In fact, without multiple monster books and Natural Spell it was never broken in the first place.

What you mean is it wasn't broken without _any_ monster book.

 

[Zurai]

All this wild shape talk is giving me some ideas, though, for a shapeshifter class..

There's a shapeshifting variant Ranger in the APG ...

 

[Friend of the Dork]

The Polymorph descriptor (of which wildshape is under) states that you gain natural attacks, size changes to CMB, AC, Steath, etc (everything except stats change, unless noted specifically in the spell). It is also where you find out about your armor AC bonus being ditched in the process (although the wording implies magical bonuses on your armor still apply - just not the origenal item bonus). Eschew materials and Natural Spell feats are still avalable to allow casting in that form, and abilities (such as growing claws from a sorcerer bloodline trait) still can be used.

All this wild shape talk is giving me some ideas, though, for a shapeshifter class..

Hmm thanks for the info will look up the Polymorph descriptor.. too bad one can't just read the spell descriptions anymore to get such details. So you get size changes to CMB(d), but not the same size modifiers to attributes? Thus when you choose a small or even tiny form you retain your 18 str (if you have that)? When you say you get AC, you mean the natural armor? Dex bonus? Anything else?

What you mean is it wasn't broken without _any_ monster book.

No I meant it wasn't broken with just MM1. Tough? Sure, but not over the top broken. At least I've yet to have a player who got a shape I felt was broken (except any flyer+natural spell).