Help me realize why this is broken. (Spell Points)

[Mathew Lankard]

So it's not that I have anything in particular against the vancian system but I've been trying to get spell points working in my game for a few months. My main problems with the system in UA is two fold. I've seen several forum threads about how there are not enough points along with alternate increases around 30 percent or so. I also dislike the problems with some prestige classes, notably that there are no listed progressions and it's trial and error to come up with you own.

So my idea was to use what sounds up front as the easiest idea. Have spells cost there levels in points, and give points based on the normal progressions. So a 3rd level wizard would have 4 points, 2 for his 2 first level spells, and 2 for his 1 second level spell. Bonus spells would be added the same way.

So I know there is something, what else am I obviously missing?

 

[Sigurd]

There are certain spells, Fireball, for example which for some people are the cream of a particular level. (Fireball may not be your fave - thats not the point). The Level system forces effort on various levels. Fireball at level 3 is well above the value of 3 magic missiles.

Without some care, blasters will have a very free hand converting all their magic power into the best ammunition they can arrange. A straight point system will allow a caster to pull magic from less popular levels and focus all his\her magic in the cherry picked spells of choice.

So instead of being able to cast 3 fireballs a day at 7th level. A sorcerer would be able to cast 8 or so. (assuming a high int) Thats more firepower than you'd expect from a 7th level char. The tendency will be to bring big damage spells into battle fast and sort everything out when the enemy is dead - utility spells will suffer. Further, by streamlining the choice of spells metamagic feats become more powerful and specialized.


Sigurd


Fireball may not be the best example but it is the clearest one.

 

[papastebu]

Can you cast any spell at any time while spell points are available for it~you have 3 points available but want to cast a 4th level spell, but have to settle for something less powerful.
If this is the way you run it, you'll run into a problem that you wouldn't have in Vancian magic--which I am not a fan of for games. If they only have as many points as they would need to get the spell for the level when they would--as per now--become available, they have to use the spell-slot system, anyway, because if they cast too many 1st levels, they'd lose the option of casting seconds and thirds, etc.
If you base the spell points on something like 1(wizard level value) +1(relavant ability-modifier value) per wizard level gained, I think you'll get more milage out of it, and make your players of casters happier, in the bargain.
What do you think?

I just read the first reply--dang, missed again--and you could just make metamagic use cost more points, say four points more?

 

[Crashy75]

Are you using psionics? If not, the work is already done for you. Just call "power points" mana or something.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, there's a couple of reasons why the UA spell points system isn't so grand.

1) Spell Dumping. Now easier than ever!
2) Why play a Sorcerer? Under the UA Spell Points system, the Sorcerer has (at almost all levels) exactly enough spell points to cast the Sorcerer's highest level spell known exactly one more time (at minimum caster level) than the Wizard can. And the Wizard can change out spells "known" on a daily basis. And gets access to spells sooner. And gets bonus feats. And the Wizard's Spells Per Day chart (where the UA Spell Points system gets the spells known for the day) is (for most levels) more plentiful than the Sorcerer's Spells Known chart. Other than Weapon Proficiency (very "meh"), the skill list (ditto), the difference in the primary casting stat (only matters for a handful of effects, the majority of which are in favor of the Wizard), and one spell per day (of higest level), under the UA spell points system, Wizard casting is strictly better than Sorcerer casting.
3) Favors buff, battlefield control and Save or X spells even more over direct damage spells. Other than SR penetration and range, there's no practical difference between a caster level 11 Flesh to Stone and a caster level 20 Flesh to Stone (at least, as far as the players are concerned); unless facing a critter with SR, you'll pretty much always use the caster level 11 version to save on points, as it's equally effective as the caster level 20 version. Meanwhile, there's a very big difference between a caster level 11 Chain Lightning and a caster level 20 chain lightning; if you're using Chain Lightning in a serious manner, you will have to spend greater recources for it to keep up. There's little point in Haste over caster level 5 - most situations where you'll want Haste don't last more than 5 rounds anyway, it's unlikely you'll have a reason to Haste more than 5 critters at a time, and the range basically doens't matter.

There's probably more I'm missing.

 

[evilbob]

What is wrong with the UA system and why your proposal also won't work:

evilbob's 1st Law of Spell Point System Creation for DnD Magic
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3399725&postcount=48

 

[Plane Sailing]

Are you using psionics? If not, the work is already done for you. Just call "power points" mana or something.

Similar to my thought, but rather than just use psionics, consider the following

a) spell point cost = (2*spell level) -1
b) points gained as per psion
c) points for high abilities as per psion
d) metamagic'd spells are paid for at the adjusted spell level

 

[Plane Sailing]

Another option is to borrow from Arcana Unearthed - it is halfway between spell slots and spell points.

Basically you would have your spell slots as per normal, but you can

a) unravel a spell slot, so that a high level slot can be used to provide two slots of the next level down.

b) weave spell slots, so that three slots of one level can provide one slot of the next higher level.

e.g. fibbo the wizard has cast all four of his fireballs, but wants another one - so he expends three 2nd level slots to create a new 3rd level slot, and uses that for a fireball.

e.g. zippo the wizard needs to make his whole party invisible, so he unravels on of his 3rd level slots and uses it to provide an additional 2 2nd level slots for invisibility.

It might sound complicated, but is apparently very well liked by AU/AE players and Gms alike.

Cheers